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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

718 replies

DontCallMePeanut · 07/07/2011 01:56

From The Telegraph

Sorry, my head's not in the right place to provide any critique of this at the moment, but thought this would interest the members of the feminist section. Will attempt to comment when I have a clearer head.

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MarySueFTW · 08/07/2011 19:35

Thankyou AliceTwirled I will look into those now.

HerBeX · 08/07/2011 19:38

ooh a deleted post... what did I miss...

LeninGrad · 08/07/2011 20:00

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LilBB · 08/07/2011 20:02

Sorry just realised my post should say 'if this isn't public opinion why is it in all the national newspapers'

LeninGrad · 08/07/2011 20:03

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MarySueFTW · 08/07/2011 20:10

Ok, I'm already ready to criticise Amnesty's own reporting of its requested report, which I think actually spreads myths about public awareness of rape myths.

What the article/summary says -

"Around one in 12 people (8%) believed that a woman was totally responsible for being raped if she'd had many sexual partners. Similarly, more than a quarter of people (30%) said that a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, and more than a third (37%) held the same view if the woman had failed to clearly say "no" to the man."

30/37% believe a woman is totally or partially responsible for being raped. Sounds like people need to be taught about rape myths! But if you look at the report, where it actually differentiates -

"30% of respondents thought that being drunk makes a woman in some way responsible for being raped, with 4% stating this makes them ?totally? responsible, while over a quarter (26%) viewed this as making the woman ?partially? responsible."

Partially responsible. It's a similar breakdown on the sexy clothes question -

"Two thirds (66%) of respondents thought that wearing sexy/revealing clothes does not make a woman responsible for being raped. A fifth (20%) thought it makes them ?partially? responsible, while 6% thought it makes them ?totally? responsible."

Partially responsible. What percentage of 'full responsibility'? Maybe 90% maybe 10%, I don't know. Now it's easy to say 'they must realise a woman is never partially responsible for being raped' but are the respondents not saying that realistically we all have to take responsibility for ourselves? I think there is a difference between asking people to decide what is 'responsibility' and the conclusion that they are 'blaming' the victim. Without a comparative study that asked 'do you think a person drunk and asleep on a nightbus is partially responsible if his ipad gets stolen, it's hard to say we live in a coutry that excuses rape any more than other crimes. Personally I would not answer such a question saying either made a woman partially responsible, but I'm not sure of the reasoning behind all those that would.

As for the 4 or 5% that think these things make women 'totally responsible' - that is truly baffling.

I would also say again that considering the conviction rate for rapes is roughly 50% if and when they reach court, the priority should be to make more cases reach court. I don't see anyone disagreeing with that.

LeninGrad · 08/07/2011 20:15

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LeninGrad · 08/07/2011 20:17

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DontCallMePeanut · 08/07/2011 20:17

When the Hollyoaks rape storyline played out this year, I was on the digitalspy forums. So many of the posters on there, despite usually being somewhat intelligent came out with some right gems

"Gilly couldn't have done it. It's not in his nature"
"She lead him on"
"She's a slag anyway"
"We all know she lied about x scenario" (She hadn't lied, her cousin had and she'd reacted)
Even "Gilly's too good looking" on one occassion.

The number of posters posting this kind of clap trap outweighed that of those saying Jacqui (the victim) was in no way to blame. So please, MarySue. Tell me it's not public opinion,

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UsingMainlySpells · 08/07/2011 20:19

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LilBB · 08/07/2011 20:20

Ok I leave my sat nav in my car on the passenger seat. Someone smashes the window and takes it. I'm partially responsible as I left it out on display but that doesn't mean the person who took it wasn't a thief. However I hate that analogy as women are not possessions but it's in response to your post about iPad stealing. We are not on display ready for taking and having something stolen is not the same as being raped. Even if a woman put herself in a situation that resulted in rape eg walked down a dark alley alone at night then it doesn't mean the person who did it isn't a rapist. It doesn't mean the rapist doesn't deserve to be punished.

The problem with these opinions of women being fully/partially responsible means that rapists are getting away with rape. Would the theif who stole something on display be less of a thief?

LeninGrad · 08/07/2011 20:24

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DontCallMePeanut · 08/07/2011 20:30

but are the respondents not saying that realistically we all have to take responsibility for ourselves?

And how do children do that?
Or women who are raped by their partners?
Or those raped... Oh, I don't know... Just anyone raped.

Last time I checked, you can't take responsibility for someone elses actions. Because everytime you say the woman should take responsibility, you have a rape victim reverting to blaming themselves.

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Catitainahatita · 08/07/2011 20:53

Against my better judgement and because MS is not the only one reading this, I shall offer this as an example of how victim blaming endures. It's an article about the slutwalks:

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2000598/Slut-walks-crude-betrayal-women.html

The autor starts her piece by making clear that "rape can never be excused." If you read it carefully you will see that she is convinced she believes that "nothing excuses rape or sexual violence of any kind". However, having said this she goes on to criticise the following attitude:

"The women who will be taking part in the Slutwalk think they should be free to dress how they please, without consequences, and without comprehending that freedom also involves responsibilities."

She argues that it is "not empowering to dress like a slut"

"What is empowering is to value yourself and your body ? and to present yourself as someone deserving of respect. "

If we disregard the topic of the article -since there have been threads on the slutwalks and we don't need to go over it all here- what I am trying to show is that the author talks half the feminist talk (no excuse for rape, it is empowering to respect yourself etc,) she can't shake free of the idea that somehow a women's clothing defines how she should be treated ("to present yourself as someone deserving of respect") and that if she doesn't obey this socially imposed norm there may be negative consequences.

Again, to reiterate, she doesn't say that this is the woman's fault, quite the oppposite she goes to enormous effort to say this is what she doesn't mean. But she still uses the classic argument of the victim-blamer: if you didn't dress like "a slut" you wouldn't be at risk of being raped. If she truely believed that rape is never the woman's fault she would not make such an example. If she thought that all women -regardless of their dress or job- deserved respect, she wouldn't argue that a women can only be sure of receiving respect if she dresses a certain way.

I think she thinks she is being pragmatic. She thinks she is pointing out the "realities" of the situation. In fact she is just perpetrating the good old rape myths that most rape victims wore skimpy clothing; that most rapes are done by strangers to strangers; and that some men just can't control themselves around women.

In fact, most rapes are suffered by women who this author would consider to be "showing a little restraint" in their dress; most rapes are carried out by a person already known to the rapist; and men are perfectly capable of controlling themselves around women. A rapist chooses to rape, because he wants to and because he thinks he can get away with it.

AliceTwirled · 08/07/2011 21:03

Catitainahatita - that's why I posted my links too. I knew the response I'd get. But it's always worth stating it for all the other people who are reading. Why waste such a good opportunity, wherever it comes from. Grin

SinicalSal · 08/07/2011 21:09

In our town a few years back a girl got raped by the barman in the pub she'd been drinking in. By all accounts they'd flirted all evening,and he offered to walk her home, and that's when it happened.

The sense of something being covered up all through this gossipy small town was very strange. She wasn't a proper rape victim - what could she expect? The poor girl had the misfortune to be raped on a typical friday night out for a girl of her age, dressed up, drinking, on the pull. She must be raging she didn't get targetted by the opportunist, say on Sunday sedately leaving Mass, wearing a modest blouse, in the company of close male relatives.

'She was pissed'
'The outfit she was wearing!'
'She was coming on to him all night'
'she went outside with him, did she think he'd be content with a peck on the cheek'
'I can't believe he'd do something like that. there must be more to this than meets the eye'.

Catitainahatita · 08/07/2011 21:33

Exactly my feeling too, Alice.
I just need to correct the error in my typing: "most are carried out by a person already known to the VICTIM; and men are perfectly capable of". Sorry.

DontCallMePeanut · 08/07/2011 21:39

Catain, Liz Jones' feminist article on the SlutWalks was as bad in some ways. Tried claiming that rape and domestic abuse are working class problems that us working class women "put up" with... Hmm

I try to avoid the Daily Fail these days. Otherwise, I'd end up having a coronary by the time I hit 27.

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SpringchickenGoldBrass · 08/07/2011 22:11

If we're getting on to 'asking for it', I would like to mention that I have been roaming the streets, pissed, in skimpy clothing, alone, for over two decades and I have not been raped. Which demonstrates to me that most men are not, in fact, rapists. And if I had encountered a rapist who had raped me it would still not have been my fault or something I deserved.

Also, on the innocent-till-proven-guilty thing, as a principle I think it's fine. IN everyday life, it's more blurred. There is someone I know who committed a very violent domestic assault on another person. The victim's reputation was trashed in court (drunk, cokehead, liar, etc) and the assailant was acquitted.
I know the person did it. Years later, some people are still claiming the assailant was the victim of malice and gossip and was 'wronged' (though karmic justice was later served by said assailant doing something else wrong and actually spending some time in a cell).

LilBB · 08/07/2011 22:18

Does anyone know statistically when most rapes occur? Are most in the early hours of the weekend? I always remember my mum saying to me that if you encounter a rapist you could be just as easily walking your dog fully dressed or staggering home from a night out in a minidress. Obviously this is jut her opinion but it stuck with me that you are sometimes just in the wrong place at the wrong time and it doesn't matter what you're doing cos if they want to rape you they will.

LeninGrad · 08/07/2011 22:19

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Empusa · 08/07/2011 22:21

"but are the respondents not saying that realistically we all have to take responsibility for ourselves? "

Oh FFS.

Think of it like this, if someone was beaten up, if you were told that the way they dressed made them partially responsible, would you think that was reasonable? If not, then why would it apply to rape victims?

DontCallMePeanut · 08/07/2011 22:34

What Lenin said. The only times I was... I still can't bring myself to call it rape, but I'll have to at some point... coerced into sex I didn't want was at home. By my so called boyfriend.

I used to walk home from work anytime between 10pm and 3am. Did so alone. Never got hassled. Never got raped out in public. Most rapes don't happen like that. That's just what the media wants us to believe, so it's easier to blame the victim.

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Catitainahatita · 08/07/2011 22:40

DCMP: I think Deborah Orr has a similar op-Ed in the Guardian also. IMHO it just shows how ingrained these myths are in people's minds and how they trip you up even when you don't consciously want to victim blame.

SinicalSal · 08/07/2011 22:52

I told a story above and all the quotes are what lovely decent caring people said to me. One who I know for a fact has experienced a rape herself, many moons ago. It's 'just common sense'

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