I think feminism will make things better for boys/men

[TrillianAstra]

No suspicion when a man wants to work with children

No sarcastic remarks about male nurses

No "you can't play with that, it's for girls"

No teaching little boys that to be a man is to be tough and hard and unemotional

And of course all the women in a man's life will be much happier

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Of course they won't get disproportionate amounts of pay and won't be chosen for promotion unless they actually are the best candidate, but I think the above makes up for that.

I'd agree its a chicken/egg thing - but my belief is that without economic power, women will always be (old-fashioned language but the clearest way of putting it) oppressed. At its simplest, without economic independence, women cannot walk away from abuse, whether that be in relationships, employment or anywhere else.

But women gaining economic independence doesn't mean men losing it (certainly as a class) - I don't see any likelihood of us ending up in a situation where men earn systematically less than women.

I'm not sure how male / female unemployment rates compare in areas where there has been big losses in manufacturing jobs - it would be interesting to know the answer to that one.

X post, sorry Trillian - you put it much better and more briefly!

I'm uncomfortable with anything being described as "women's work."

My older brother is a primary school teacher (and a brilliant one at that, and no that's not me being biased, he won his local 'Primary School Teacher of the Year' award last year!) and there are people who question why he would want to teach the "little" children. Several of his so-called friends said that only women should want to be primary school teachers.

Baffling.

And then we complain that boys don't have role models - it's because all the men who want to be primary teachers are mocked or accused of being paedophiles!

It's madness isn't it?

My brother works in a large primary school, with a 90 intake, so obviously a large number of teachers for a primary.

When he started at this school seven years ago, he was one of five male teachers, but the only younger one. He is now the only male teacher in the school, the other four have retired.

Purple - your brother's experience is a good example of what I mean when I said "will society let them". I don't agree at all with the label 'womens jobs' but even on MN in a quite well educated cohort there is still a lot of that undertone. Baffling as you say.

Trillian - in a shrinking or very static economy where the economic pie is not growing then inevitably men will lose economic power as women gain a bigger share. Not necessarily a bad thing if, say, a typical family unit has two lower paid part time jobs that bring in the same income and both parents have more time with each other and their children.

"will society let them"

In my post-feminist world of course society will let men do any kind of job or work part time or take on caring duties just as much as it "lets" women. That's kind of the point.

Are you on the right thread wrongdecade?

yeah Im saying your post isn't all well negative and I've seen alot of worrying posts

its a refreshing change

Will read the rest of the thread in a bit.

Just wanted to add though that the happiest men I've ever met (including my two brothers and dh) really respect women. They have happy, satisfyling relationships.

So, yes I wholeheartedly agree - feminism is good for men.

I think feminism has already been quite good for my DH and I hope it will make the world even better for my DS.

When I watch my DH cuddling my son, telling him how much he loves him, changing nappies, kissing scraped knees better - I think how much his own (very traditional) dad missed out on just by virtue of spending so much less time with his sons and feeling unable to communicate his emotions to them.

The world has a long way to go but being able to tell your baby boy that you love him without worrying that you'll "damage" his / your own masculinity - that's a bloody big improvement as far as I'm concerned!

I think that feminism is a positive force for men and boys as it will lead to a world where they are not babied and infantalized. I will ensure my sons will leave home with the basics of home economics, budgeting, DIY and also how to sew and cook. Men will not feel that the path to manliness lies through violence and arrogance and that being a SAHD is as valid as having a career.
Men will also have greater access to self expression and the arts and not feel that it is unmanly to have an interest in beauty.
Men will also be free from the strange dichotomy that they are expendable in times of war but are assumed to have to lead all the time.

Lovely post Grumpla.

Yes, I don't know much about that world as my own father was lovely to the four of us.

However, my dh is much closer to our dc mainly because he spends so much time with them. I do tell him how close a bond he will have with them when they are adults and that that thought makes me really happy.

I also think that I avoided some sort of depression after dc2 was born because he was so supportive. After taking 2 weeks unpaid leave (not eligible for pat leave as he had been in the job just shy of 6 months), he worked and did all the housework for a while. He sees us as a team, we don't really have 'roles'. The kids are just as easily comforted by him as by me.

He truly finds his happiness in being a Dad.

"He truly finds his happiness in being a Dad."

I think a lot of men would do the same if they were able to accept that happiness as being for them. So many men father at one remove because it isn't their world.

Completely agree.

I have a DD whose own personality combined with my feminist upbringing will (I hope) allow her to make the most of her opportunities and not suffer some of the restrictions placed on her by gender norms.

I worry more about my DS. He's bright, fun and confident but quiet and caring. I am always picking him up from CM or nursery and hearing how he's been comforting an upset or hurt child. Apparently he's the first there. I want him to grow up in a world where that's appreciated not ridiculed. Obviously it's a bit too early to tell (with him being only 4 an all) but I really could see him as SAHD to a WOHM, and I strongly suspect he will be drawn to some sort of caring role when he starts work.

Yep, definitely in agreement with OP. I was a feminist before I became a mother to a son. Now I'm even more committed. I want him to have all the opportunities to love, cherish, feel and emote that any of his female friends would have. Only feminism can deliver that freedom.

You know Ormirian and HRHM, I witnessed my Dad's happiness increase when he and my much younger sister developed this mega-bond. My Dad was a good Dad to us 3 older ones but we are 70's babies and the times changed so when my sister was born in the 80's my Dad was allowed to be close to her.

I'm so gald he has that as although I love him, we're not close the way I am with my Mum. This is why my dh's relationship with our dc makes me happy because I've seen what it can become.

I feel very sad when I look at DH and our DC. He was great when they were little but struggles now they are older He feels the need to be the boss all the time, to always be right and never say sorry. He wants to be a good dad but doesn't know how. He was brought up by his mum alone who beleived that a mother should be at home with her DC and that a boy shoud be strong and play football ec. He wants to be right-on but l his instints fight against it.