Starting to wish we had old fashioned me (mum) stay at home, he (dad) go out to work set up :(

[joric]

that's it really and I never thought I'd say it but both me and DH work full time- love my job- I probably do 60/40 childcare stuff he does shopping, some washing, I clean and sort out bills etc....we ate both a bit knackered and things get half done. I am starting to think my grandparents lifestyle was a better arrangement- him to work her at home doing everything to do with the home whilst he is at work and children are at school. They had a very organised lifestyle and evenings were relaxed and free. They would eat together, see family etc as all the chores had been done in the day and his work was done for
the day.
Thoughts please :)

I used to envy people that worked and had childcare

I used to work weekend nights after looking after ds's all week. Now the ds's are getting older I work week nights and have increased my hours. I am enjoying my job much more and value the time I do get at home more.

I feel respected as a professional at work in a way I don't get at home, where I am just 'mum' iyswim. I need the challenge work provides and I really feel I do need that other part of me. I think that becomes more of an issue once your children are school age as mine are.

"I feel respected as a professional at work in a way I don't get at home, where I am just 'mum' iyswim."

Going on multiple posts on MN, your feelings are clearly shared by many others (though not by me). If you don't feel respected at home, why is that? What do you think you could do to be respected more at home?

I work 4 days a week spread over five and I find nothing gets done 'properly' - if it weren't for the cleaner the house would be a tip, DD stays in after school clubs far too long for my liking and I'm constantly juggling/running around keeping plates spinning...

However, and this is the weird thing, my DH is often away abroad on business, and when he's away, things run far more smoothly... because then I know it's all down to me, and I don't have to cater for him as well as myself/DD.

That actually sounds like I run around after DH, and I don't, he's pretty self-sufficient... but when he takes charge of the child-related duties, it's never a solo effort if I'm present in the house, if that makes sense. I'm being forever badgered about where her socks/clean uniform etc are (same place as always...) and what he should make her for breakfast/take in for lunch/where her homework is/why hasn't xyz been done (when it's generally the first time I've heard of xyz) etc etc.

Weirdly, and I have pointed this out to him, the rare times I'm not around, he gets on with it, DD doesn't go to school naked/hungry and it all works out, it's just like he can't function if he knows I'm somewhere in the house to fall back on...

I suppose, having rambled 'aloud' on this thread, that I get a lot more done/am more efficient when he's not there because when he's not there it's just me making the decisions and so there's no hassle, no second-guessing, it just gets done and so it's far easier!

That's not to say I don't sometimes just want to stay at home and bake LDR/be with DD in the school hols/spend time with her on her homework when she's not so tired it turns into a battle.... but so does DH (more football less baking on his part) and we can't both do it (unless we just go live in the tent in a layby somewhere).

Also, when I was on maternity leave, suffering PND and not 'contributing' as much as he felt I ought to be (financially or in terms of housekeeping), I found DH's respect for me dropped to zero. He denies that it did, but then, he said in the course of an argument that as he earned the most (a very recent phenomena) he should get more of a say in how things were done. DH is the sort who is very calm and laid back normally but he broods on things and so on the rare occasions we argue I feel that the truth really comes out, iyswim? He backtracked immediately when I challenged him on it, but it's left me feeling very wary of putting myself in a position where I'm financially dependent on him. Which is quite sad...

I'll stop rambling now!

Lovecat - I think it is really important to unpick the argument whereby votes are allocated proportionally to financial contribution to household.

There is contribution to household in £££ terms, and there is contribution to household in kind, to which you can, if it helps, apportion a notional £££ value in cost of replacement.

Ah, Bonsoir, DH would say that I do neither if we were arguing that...

Which is why I go off every so often on my own and let him find out what I do do.... :o

Bonsoir, I disagree that this is an inevitable result of having state-funded childcare. There will always be families who will prefer not to do this. There are many women out there who could make much more profit if they went back to work even after paying childcare, but they choose not to. I think there are far more women who want to work but are prevented from doing so because of the cost of childcare.

Someone posted about the stress of working and the logisitics of school and childcare. That takes on a huge looming significance when they were small - I clearly remember starting a 'summer holidays spreadsheet' back in April!1 Just so I could work out who was looking after them when. It was a perpetual worry. And the running around taking DC here and there before I started school every morning - I look back and wonder how I did it But I only have one at primary now - the others gets themselves to school and back and can wait at home without DH or I. It also helps that DH teaches for can do school hours. But it is only a temporary problem - that needs to be borne in mind.

I share the pleasure of doing household things well. Making a good meal, setting the kitchen straight, planting runner beans and seeing them grow. I have to say I have much less enthusiasm about doing my own cleaning Partly because apart from a few years we've never had a cleaner so I would happily never ever lift a hoover in anger again! Hate it!

sunshineandbooks - on what basis do you disagree? Have you lived in an economy that coerces mothers into work with high taxes and subsidised childcare and discussed their feelings with them?

Bonsoir - can you elaborate on the effects of the state-model you've mentioned with some specific detail, please?

I think this set up can work really well (for both sahd or sahm) if entered into freely.

What could become a real tension point is when the sahp is expected to be the primary carer and main homeworker 24/7.

Each parent in the partnership ideally should have the same amount of free time to do what they want.

In the past I don't think this was the case for many set-ups. Certainly my grandmother would get up before my grandfather to do chores, go to bed later for the same reason, and would still be doing the bulk of the childcare and home care at weekends. This patently isn't fair.

For me choice is a core part of feminism as long as it is real choice. So I fully support women who want to be SAHPs because they genuinely prefer it; but I would like it to be a matter of pure choice for anyone, male of female, to become a SAHP or to be a parent working outside the home. That's why it's tricky to use grandparents as a comparison, though, because that element of free choice was much less available to women then, so even for grandmothers who appeared to enjoy the role, that's within the context of there realistically being little other choice for them.

Always remember though that it serves patriarchal interests for women to be occupied in criticising one another's choices. This is why I would like to see all women supporting one another's right to choose freely how they parent - then we can focus more effectively on combatting injustices against women.

Zwitterion Yes, completely agree.

EightiesChick - I don't understand your question.

There is never going to be "free choice" about whether mothers work or not - it is always going to be a trade off between money/time spent with children/time spent on other aspects of life.

I often think that it must be lovely to be a SAHM, but I'm sure I would long to work, if I didn't have to. I think the key for me is that I have absolutely no choice at all - I earn the higher salary (still not that much), so I always knew I would have to go back to work after 6 months, and it irritates me slightly when people talk about your "choice" to return to work - I haven't had one.

Fortunately, I really enjoy my job and it is fairly flexible - so I can do 3.5-4 days, plus paperwork in the evenings. DH's isn't at all however. He works full-time (including every other Saturday but with a day off in the week), and they are not at all helpful about him going part-time, or, if he did, giving him regular days off. So it's a very stressful juggling act, where, by necessity, I earn most of the money, and do most of the childcare. Housework doesn't really get done by anyone (I try), and we can't afford a cleaner. Nor could we afford the childcare if we were to have another child, but we can't live (and I mean eating, not luxuriess) off one salary. A similar scenario must be experienced by many, many families and yet everyone talks as if women have a free choice to stay at home or not.

I think whichever you do, you can feel a bit trapped, if there is no other option.

Bonsoir - I'm not familiar with an instance of the state funded model. Describe it to me and tell me the problems that arose, if you would, please. You stated that it doesn't work, but without more detail I can't make my own judgement on that. You mentioned 'when this happens' - so tell me more about that.

EightiesChick - you are asking me to write a book here, and I cannot do that. Take a look at Sweden, Belgium and France.

Would it be possible for you to take a career break for, say, 6 months to a year, OP? Because it might be foolish to properly give up your job, and find a few months down the line that you hate SAH.

Another option would be to look at working part time, so you have a couple of days a week when you are SAH.

Personally, I think it is possible to get yourself organised to the point when you don't feel like you're spinning plates and all is constant madness. DH and I both work full-time. I have a cleaner and shop online, which is lovely as far as I'm concerned since I hate shopping and cleaning. Are you sure you'd really want to do those things yourself after the novelty has worn off?! We make sure that the DDs only do a limited number of activities, and try to co-ordinate activities around each other so we're not running in several directions at once. We split the school runs and collecting, we split the housework, we pick up for each other when one of us needs to go away to a conference or work late.

I don't feel like I'm spinning plates. The house may be a bit scruffy between cleaner visits but who cares? The DDs are in childcare a lot but they love it. I go out a couple of evenings a week to my own activities, weekend afternoons are very relaxed. I grow vegetables, go running, the kids go over to friends and have friends over.

I would suggest you sit down, look at all the things you're doing, rank them in order of importance and see if you could simply do less. Quite often, I think, people take on more stuff than they need to and are so busy rushing that they don't realise not all of it is vital.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Agree Bonsoir that choice is more a degree of compromise. However the burden of this compromise tends to fall on women -the decisions and the guilt.

Totally agree with EightiesChick that women should support and respect each other's choices.

My mum stayed at home and looked after us but it was a "duty" for her, she did keep the house very clean, and did all the laundry, but looking back she was obviously depressed and bored shitless and she returned to work when I was 14 to a job way below her capabilities and became very dissatisfied and very very depressed later in life at the chances she had missed.

Her last few years were tough for all the family and she told me categorically not to ever make myself dependent on a man (my dad then backed this up by saying, "don't make yourself financially dependent on anyone").

I work part time and I have a cleaner and sometimes wish we had more time, but I take a week off to do housework etc and I'm crawling up the walls by the end of it. I like my job as I find it mentally stimulating most of the time, and I don't find housework stimulating and I don't feel fulfilled by laundry. But my cleaner, well she LOVES cleaning, she really does, but I don't.

If you feel you are doing too much get your DH to do more, I wrote down a list of stuff and we split the chores, DH does everything to do with hoovering for instance, I don't touch the hoover, and he also hangs out laundry and irons his own shirts. Men do not die when they pick up an iron, despite what they might think.

I certainly don't extend universal support to other women for their choices. Some of them make totally deranged choices that harm themselves and their families. I got cornered by someone (unknown to me) yesterday who was clearly in an advanced state of mental breakdown, yet defending her decision to work and outsource her home life, despite have an über high earning husband. She had no clarity on her choices and they were inordinately ill-informed...

I don't need a book, Bonsoir, but a paragraph might be nice! You didn't give any examples in your original post on this. I assume France is one of your cases - do you want to take a few lines to evidence your argument with regard to France, then?

Bonsoir I agree that there will indeed always been a trade off between economic necessity and the desire to SAH. However, I still don't see why that means that the vast majority of women are going to be forced back to work against their will.

Yes, higher taxes will be required to fund childcare, but even if I were to give over an extra 25% of my earnings in additional tax on top of what I pay now, it would still be far far less than what I'm currently paying in childcare. For working women (who make up the majority of the female adult population), it works much better and it also allows women who want to work but who find childcare costs prohibitive to re-enter the workplace. The countries you are talking about also have a significantly lower gender pay gap than here in the UK because more women are able to enter the workplace.

Yes, there will be some families where the hike in tax and the availability of childcare means greater pressure is put on the SAHP who wants to be a SAHP to go back to work. I certainly agree that is regrettable and I would like to see something enshrined in law/tax to try to circumvent this. However, I think these will be far fewer in number than those women who benefit. To some extent being a SAHP has always been a set-up limited to a small, well-off section of society anyway. The increase in tax may make the choice harder to maintain, but I doubt it would be a massive disincentive to someone who holds that lifestyle choice in high regard.

Bonsoir, you are one of a number of mums on MN who seem to have reconciled the idea that SAH does not equal loss/lack of status. Did you suffer some sort of career 'burn out'? If so, perhaps that is why you are able to see things so clearly .

EightiesChick - you are an extraordinarily demanding poster! No I am not going to do ground work for you and these are not things that are quick and easy to summarise. I suggest that, if you are you as interested as you say in this very complex issue, you do your own research before entering the debate

pickledsiblings - I don't understand what link there might be between career burn out and reconciliation of lack of status. I know plenty of women like me who certainly felt that they were not going to gain anything by pursuing their career path (that the sacrifices were going to be a lot greater than the gains) but that is a mere cost/benefit analysis.

I think that attaching personal status to work status is something that generally has its roots in childhood and family values. In my family work is very much seen as a means to a (financial) end. Maybe perhaps because we have many generations of professional (upper) middle-class behind us and we cannot see how our social status will be improved by work? Most women I know who are still slogging it out at work come from modest backgrounds and suffer status anxiety.