I don't know whether I was right to have been offended by this….

[DaisyHayes]

I am a teacher, and part of my role in school is to train and mentor new teachers and student teachers.

Last year, when we got the intake of student teachers, I greeted them and delivered my welcome presentation and induction as usual.

One of the students, when I introduced myself to him, refused to shake my hand when I introduced myself to him. He did not offer any explanation for this. I continued to offer my hand expectantly, and after an awkward pause, he told me that he does not shake hands with women on religious grounds.

I found this unbelievably fucking offensive.

Aside from anything else, the man was a student teacher on his first day in the school. I was (effectively) his manager who had the power to pass or fail him - I am fairly experienced and have been in my current school for eight years, so have some responsibility and superiority. He was at least ten years younger than me.

Firstly, I think that if someone in a professional environment is proffering their hand to you upon being introduced then professionalism and simple manners would take precedence over whatever religious conventions you adhere to.

Secondly, if you are going to be so rude as to not shake my female hand, then you should at the very least explain why you are not doing so, rather than let me stand there with my hand stuck out while you studiously ignore it.

Part of me worries that I am being incredibly bigoted. I am an atheist, but have never felt the need to demonstrate a Richard Dawkinesque crusade against those who have religious belief and think that it is good manners to respect others' faith.

On the other hand, part of me just thinks why on earth should I be understanding and accommodating about someone who clearly demonstrated that he thinks my possessing ovaries makes me utterly inferior to him and unworthy of simple manners?

I'd be really grateful for your thoughts on this.

[DaisyHayes]

Thant's interesting megapixels. I don't think I'd have thought the woman felt the man was superior in that instance. I do think that I would still have felt it bad manners...

It's a wider contextual thing though isn't it? Based on assumptions and little knowledge I have about most religions. Knowing that most religions are hostile to women, I extrapolated the young man's refusal to shake my hand as stemming from that. I think. This was probably unfair on my part. I don't know, I'm very confused about this.

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

He's a self-obsessed superstitious knob with poor manners. Anyone who insists on clinging to their fuckwitted taboos needs to learn superior social skills quickly - if you want to do something freaky or avoid something most other people do, you need to be ready with a quick, polite explanation rather than allowing awkward situations to arise - as someone said upthread, the bloke could have approached with his hands behind his back and inclined his head or something, or just said nicely and immediately 'Sorry but I don't shake hands, pleased to meet you.' It's the fact that he stood there and didn't offer an explanation of his refusal to shake hands. Someone needs to point out to him that refusing to shake with no explanation transmits the message in a lot of cultures that you despise or dislike the other person.

[CrapolaDeVille]

I'm pretty darn tired of making excuses for hideous religious views, whether it be that women are unclean or tempting...whatever. It's about time people were told that HUMAN trumps religious rights.

2011, people, 2011.

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

Also, if he does adhere to a woman-hating superstition, he shouldn't be allowed to teach, at least not in state schools. A teacher who thinks women are subhuman is not only an undesirable teacher for girls, but a lousy one for boys as well: boys will be harmed by being taught that women are subhuman too.

[SybilBeddows]

I'm trying to visualise how this thread would be going if OP had said 'A student teacher wouldn't shake hands with me because I'm black' rather than 'because I'm a woman.'

Show me a religion which believes that women are different from men and hence untouchable, that doesn't also treat them as inferior. This young man may well respect his mum and maybe some of his best friends are women, but he is buying into something with a very nasty background indeed by saying he won't touch a woman.

I hate this idea that if we won't put up with sexism we're intolerant. Other forms of prejudice are beyond the pale no matter how you justify them but women are just expected to suck it up.

[HopeForTheBest]

Is he Orthodox Jew? I used to work with many who were Shomer Negiah.

Here is an explaination.

[HopeForTheBest]

Aargh, pressed POST too soon!

Meant to add that there are various religions which forbid contact with the opposite sex unless related, though it's usually women not being allowed to touch men.

[DaisyHayes]

I don't know his religion, I'm afraid. I assume it is Islam but I can't be definite. I'm pretty certain he is not Jewish.

[HopeForTheBest]

Oh, and it works both ways if he is a Shomer Negiah ie a woman would refuse to shake hands with a man too.

[HopeForTheBest]

Well, whateve religion it is, he did state that that was why he wasn't doing it. I don't think he needed to go into a detailed explaination of the theological reasoning for it.

I personally would not have been offended by it. I disagree with it, as I do with many aspects of pretty much all religions.

[porpoisefull]

I think it's wrong to assume the not shaking hands thing is an equivalent to the Hindu caste system (not touching someone because they are seen as 'unclean') or anything to do with menstruation. Surely it's about modesty across the sexes, where no one is supposed to touch someone of the opposite sex outside the family. So I don't think in itself it says anything about thinking women are inferior.

It could be argued that cultures that have an over-paranoid approach sex do tend to deal with that by controlling women, rather than men, so not good news. And it's bad manners not to try and defuse the social awkwardness not shaking hands could cause.

[queenofthecapitalwasteland]

I would certainly feel very offended, apparently many muslim men will not shake hands with non-muslim women (sexism and racism?) as they cannot be sure if they are on their period or not (I'm assuming muslim women must wear some sort of badge?)

I'd be very offended by that and I would say it seriously impacts on his ability to teach in a non-muslim school.

[WriterofDreams]

In the middle east it is normal for male friends to kiss and hug each other when they meet. However, such a thing isn't really done in western culture and a lot of British men would feel uncomfortable kissing and hugging a male friend, not because they think their friend is inferior but because they're not used to it and see males kissing and hugging as "gay." Seeing it as "gay" is a bit ridiculous but there you go. I'm sure if someone's DH went to Lebanon and was excluded from a job because he wouldn't kiss his boss everyone here would be shouting about how stupid and unfair that was.

[NotJustKangaskhan]

He should have offered an explanation at the time rather than later, as not explaining then was very disrespectful towards you especially in a group setting. Beyond that, I wouldn't really take offence though as it is his body and his say on who he allows in his personal space. Many people who don't shake hands for OCD or related reasons use religion as an excuse as it has far less stigma and people respect or least more wary of forcing issues of religion than they are issues of mental health or a person's personal or cultural preference on personal space.

Personally, I find people who force their hands into yours to shake or give jokes like 'My hands are clean' when a shake is refused respectfully as far more offensive (or worse, when people shake hands/touch/hug you against your will and say 'that wasn't so bad, was it?'). The whole concept of a handshake, the presumption that a stranger will want to touch you, is beyond me but I understand that I now live in a culture where people will at least want some explanation or reason for refusal of contact.

[CrapolaDeVille]

WoD You seem to defend the indefensible, which speaks volumes about you. And I think everyone would agree "when in Rome...."

He didn't shake hands because she's a woman.

[mrsravelstein]

cannot agree more, crapola. it couldn't be clearer cut, and i can't see how the fact that it was because of extreme religious views makes it OK.

[CrapolaDeVille]

I'm thinking of starting my own religion where one of the rules is if a shop assistant is rude I can punch her/him in the face and telling five people to fuck off everyday means you get a golden goose.....

Then I'm going to teach young and impressionable people.

[SybilBeddows]

WoD I think in that situation quite a lot of MN would be saying 'your dh is BU and homophobic too'.

[CrapolaDeVille]

Sybil....spot on.

[CrapolaDeVille]

Saying that aren't nearly all Abrahamic faiths homophobic?

[NotJustKangaskhan]

Crapola I strongly disagree with "when in Rome". No cultural norm gives someone the right to touch someone else against their will. Even if their will is based on reasons we disagree with.

[CrapolaDeVille]

Cultural and professional norms dictate that you're wrong. This is the UK and we don't really like sexism, there are plenty of countries who welcome this backward existence I suggest the bloke in the OP fucks off and lives in one of those.

[GrimmaTheNome]

No cultural norm gives someone the right to touch someone else against their will

I agree with that. The onus is on this gauche young man to learn to deal with the situation respectfully.

[claig]

I never knew there were so many secret Daily Mail readers on MN.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-430249/I-shake-hand-sir-Im-Muslim-youre-man.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1328264/Michelle-Obama-hankshake-forced-claims-Titaful-Sembiring-Twitter.html

It is not our culture, but it is part of diversity and liberal tolerance.

[megapixels]

Oh the "This is how we do it in the UK, fuck off if you don't like it" argument dressed up as intolerance to sexism. Nice.