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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Alternatives to marriage

78 replies

sunshineandbooks · 17/06/2011 10:42

First of all, apologies to any married feminists who may take offence at this post. That's not my intention. I am not having at go at people's individual marriages. I think some marriages work fabulously well, including that of my own parents.

However, the more I learn about feminism, the more radical I am becoming. I realised after posting on another thread the other day that I don't ever want to live with another man. I want to date and have sex, certainly, and I like the idea of having a 'special' long-term relationship with the right man if I met him, but I definitely do not want to live with him or get married. In my RL I know one or two people who feel the same way (both single mothers like me).

I have realised that day-to-day I only see one man on a regular basis - and that's my boss (who is lovely and very feminist in outlook). All the people I see regularly are women and children (of both sexes). And I find this doesn't matter. I used to worry about the absence of a decent male role model for DS but I've got over that now because I think it is fine as long as he's seeing decent role models full stop. I will teach him that the most important thing is to be a decent person, and that is irrespective of gender. As he grows older and increases his own social circle, he will meet plenty of men and be able to see which ones are good, which ones are bad, and which ones he wants to emulate.

I don't like the idea of living in a commune because I think it only works if you set up the commune yourself with people that you already know you can live with. I'd actually be really up for this scenario but out of my little single mothers community, I am the only one with any sort of independent income, so we're a bit stuck on getting it off the ground, sadly.

I sometimes think about moving in with another single parent and sharing things economically like you would in a marriage. Except that as much as I love my friends I know I couldn't live with them like that because we all have habits that drive each other mad. Grin I think it's an idea that works in principle though. What do others think? I often wonder if we'll see a shift in house-buying patterns anyway, with more people buying house in partnerships (i.e. economic not sexual partners) simply because these days pretty much no one can afford to buy a house on their own.

What other alternatives are there - other than living alone as I am doing now? I like living alone TBH but from a childcare perspective it makes sense if you can pool your resources. That said, if money wasn't an issue I guess I could hire a really good nanny and continue to live on my own anyway.

What do other people think?

OP posts:
Takver · 17/06/2011 15:22

I see your point, Fennel.

I reckon the work issue is one big advantage of less communal / co-housing type models.

Re. the Car / Tescos / Using a Childminder guilt - maybe you have to have a separation between communally decided standards, if you like to put it that way, and what people can decide to do in their own personal time/space. (eg, no out of season aubergines in communally cooked meals, but as many aubergines as you like in your own house).

I think that it is really hard if there are big income discrepancies, in general, regardless of the Car Guilt question. (Things like - do we put up with the roof leaking . . . do we try and bodge it ourselves . . .do we pay a roofer to come & fix it - all of which have implications for the rent.)

VictorGollancz · 17/06/2011 16:12

I've been thinking of how to put this but perhaps the organisation of domestic space has come about because of the marriage model? Two adults, joined by law, and their children, in a designated space in which the marital bedroom is often the biggest.

Are we encouraged by models of marriage to throw away, or distance ourselves, from people who are outside of the marriage (or other monogamous set-up)? So ex-partners (discounting very good reasons for their loss, such as abuse and general arse-ishness), single friends, relatives, etc, fade out because we're encouraged to view our 'married' relationship as the primary one, and anyone who might be a threat to that has to go? Or we might just lose touch because we're over-invested in our 'primary' relationship and therefore others suffer? I know when I was a teenager I went everywhere with my best friend - we're still as close as ever but that physical proximity has been filled with partners rather than each other. It's seen as 'growing up', but maybe it's not really that at all?

I'm thinking out loud here, so I could well be wrong, but maybe if so much importance wasn't placed on 'coupledom' things might relax a bit. Perhaps we'd pool our money with friends, rather than partners, or organise our space around children, or communal living such as that discussed in this thread (sounds wonderful!) would become more common.

VictorGollancz · 17/06/2011 16:15

Forgot to say, I've had discussions with female friends that, from a purely financial and general 'outlook' point of view, we'd be better off having a civil partnership between ourselves than marrying our male partners. Maybe we should give that more serious consideration.

sparky246 · 17/06/2011 16:45

this thread has really inspired me,[so thankyou everyone]
as i was writing my last post and thinking-i had a thought come to me and rushed off down the road.
i went to this "help place"and asked them if they had a single parents group-
they havent-so ive asked if i can set one up.
what i want to do is get people together and get us all helping each other more-instead of us getting helped.
a bit like a community within a commmunity i suppose.
there is so much we could all do together-both for ourselves and our kids.
the woman i spoke to sounded like she thought i was bonkers-however she did listen and ive got to go back again on monday.

garlicnutter · 17/06/2011 16:53

Whoo-hoo, Sparky! You go, girl. Brilliant Grin

sparky246 · 17/06/2011 17:05

oh you know what Garlicbutter-im so so exited[does a funny dance then a cartwheel]-i really really really hope i can pull this off.
i think the biggest problem im going to have is trying to change peoples mindset.
we CAN help each other-i just know we can.
and we could actually grow from this!
we NEED to help ourselves-the help that we get is just keeping us in one place[can you see what im saying]
gosh-if this takes off-ill never have to write a whinging post ever againGrin

celadon · 17/06/2011 17:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HerBeX · 17/06/2011 18:01

LOL good luck with it Sparky but I think you should reserve the right to whinge whenever you want to Grin

VictorGollancz · 17/06/2011 18:02

Thanks, celedon! Romantic relationships just seems so inelastic compared to other relationships.

I've shared houses with women, the last one very happily indeed. The house share came to an end due to us all moving for work but I'm sure a long-term romantic relationship would probably have had the same effect.

Several female friends have, over the years discussed pairing up and buying a house together (how else to afford one?!) - these discussions always ended with a decision not to, for what seem like very sensible reasons. Not mixing money with friendship, what if people want to move on, their life plans change, etc. But 'primary' relationships invest in housing all the time, without these questions necessarily being asked. And a house is such a huge investment!

I love my partner, but I'm not sure I want to share a kitchen with him. I like sharing my bed with him, but not all the time (we don't live together right now). So we could live apart. Perhaps we could buy a house, and he could live in it while I live elsewhere. Or perhaps I could live with him, but buy a house with a friend, and she live there. Or me and my best friend could buy a house and me and my partner could live there with her. Or without her. Or any combination of the above!

VictorGollancz · 17/06/2011 18:03

Oh, and well done Sparky! :)

motherinferior · 17/06/2011 18:10

I agree about the fetishising of the Couple Relationship; you see it time and time again, here and elsewhere, this emphasis on 'time with your partner' at the expense of time with your friends and/or time alone. And I don't understand it, quite genuinely.

I am not particularly good at living with anyone, though. Nor is DP. So my ideals of living communally are kind of grudgingly compromised by living in a nuclear family, which is the one thing that has always set my teeth on edge Hmm. I am frightfully sociable, but quite anti-social domestically.

MooncupGoddess · 17/06/2011 18:11

Very interesting posts Victor.

'Romantic relationships just seems so inelastic compared to other relationships.'

This is such a good quote, and I'm sure the all-or-nothing approach to relationships creates massive problems. Friendships and family relationships naturally wax and wane with circumstances and everyone adapts quite easily, but a romantic relationship going through a bad patch causes much misery and often a total break-up.

But then, a lot of people do like the mutual intensity of a pair-bonded relationship. Can't say I'm one of them.

sunshineandbooks · 17/06/2011 18:15

That's great sparky. Grin

VG I'd love to live in the sort of society you've described, where there are many different types of households. I think it would lead to a much more tolerant and equal society with a much stronger sense of community.

OP posts:
snowmama · 17/06/2011 19:07

That is treat Sparky!

Victor and all othes who responded to your musings, yes that would be a wonderful setup. The downgrading of all others for your partner I always find difficult to understand and very sad when it happens.

I am not very good at living with anyone either ..so of all the models discussed...the Flemish,seperate houses (though shared if you want) one community is the most appealing.

snowmama · 17/06/2011 19:08

Sparky sorry meant great not treat!

Fennel · 17/06/2011 19:10

I also don't really go for the whole couple-fantasy, I don't think I've ever lived just with DP, we always had housemates before children and when the dc were babies, I have no urge to live just with him. That's partly why I'm already plannnig my retirement commune, to avoid being that sort of matching couple traipsing around in pairs in matching cagoules.

motherinferior · 17/06/2011 19:37

Mr Inferior and I actually get along very well on the rare occasions we find ourselves out together alone, but when in the seclusion of our own home are frequently found on different floors of our house*. The trouble is, I am not very good at communal living either.

*it isn't very big, our house, it's just got lots of stairs.

VictorGollancz · 17/06/2011 20:04

I'd probably be asked to leave any commune due to my complete inability to keep any space tidy for more than three hours :( Fennel, do you keep relatively separate living spaces?

MooncupGoddess and sunshineandbooks - Absolutely! My sister and I have recently started chatting a lot more frequently after a period of some four months with only the odd text. Everything's fine, we were just really busy. If me and my partner did that our friends would assume we'd split up; and even though I know we're fine, and I really don't upgrade my Couple Relationship at the expense of others (love that term!), I'd nonethless feel something had gone very amiss were my partner to go fairly mute for over a week or so. Sounds like unconscious upgrading is happening, bugger :)

It's something I muse over quite a bit, because I'm not very good at all with Couple Relationships, and the Couple House is something I genuinely dread. But living apart is expensive. Two can live cheaper than one in my bit of the UK, due to quirky rental prices. The temptation is always there...

The 'throwing away' of partners due to a new Couple Relationships seems very relevant to child-rearing. I always get such a warm glow when I hear of people amicably co-parenting, despite separation or divorce. And when communal parenting gets thrown into the mix, and there's friends and grandparents and all sorts caring for children, well, the glow gets even warmer!

celadon · 17/06/2011 20:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fennel · 17/06/2011 21:13

No I don't HE, absolutely not, I am quite a big fan of formal institutions for education - I guess that demonstrates how you can be a communal type in some ways and not in others.

I know people who've studied Living Apart Together, and did it themselves for years too as well as writing about it. Sounds very sensible for those that like their own space.

I actually like to share space, I get lonely living on my own, or being on my own for more than a few hours.

Fennel · 17/06/2011 21:14

Victor, we used to have shared living spaces, currently we aren't sharing a house, but living nearby, but in a future co-housing situation (and I do intend to do it again properly) I think we'd definitely go for lots of separate space as well as shared space.

ilovedora27 · 18/06/2011 10:15

Here loads of people are single mums as it makes more sense for most as you get a much higher household income if you dont live with someone. Most flats are single mums in my road especilly in the blocks, but they live close together so leave the kids with each other/family/the dads on the weekends etc.

Suppose it might depend on area but ime a lot of purpose build flats are predominantly single mums and the gated community ones with the gardens in the middle. That way you only have to rent your own flat and wouldnt cost you any money, just go round them all and try and suss out the neighbours first, or get other single mum friends to move in next door/same block as you.

sparky246 · 20/06/2011 17:58

wahoooo-i think i might have a space.
i went and saw the woman today and she said that basiccally-shes got to sort out a time and day ect.

MooncupGoddess · 20/06/2011 19:12

Great stuff sparky Grin

sparky246 · 20/06/2011 20:39

thankyou mooncupSmile
oh god-im so happy/worried and nervous.
i hope people turn up and i hope people understand what im saying-
i would so so love for this estate to turn itself around.
it would be so great to have women helping each other[not just little pockets]and not fighting.
theres enough of this from the men.
i hope im not sitting on my todd with this.
exiting but scary!

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