Are paedophiles "born that way"?

[NameChangeForThisThread]

I'm a lurker in the feminism section, but name changed for this thread (regular though not prolific poster elsewhere on MN).

This is not a thread about a thread, but is inspired by posts on another thread where someone said that paedophiles are born that way, like gay people are born gay. I have quite firmly held beliefs that whilst gay people are born gay, paedophiles are not. I believe child rape has more to do with rape generally (power) than with sexuality. But reading the other thread has me questioning whether those beliefs are consistent with each other and, whilst it's not a feminist issue, I was hoping to get some discussion from a feminist perspective.

I have quite a bit invested in my beliefs. Being a lesbian and having been repeatedly raped as a child, I believe that being gay is what I always was, before the abuse and therefore not caused by it ("born gay") and that my rapist does not have any excuses for what he did (not "born that way"). Is this skewing my perspective? After all, paedophilia is much wider than child rape, perhaps child rape is a combination of power (rape) and an inherent sexual interest in children? I'd be interested to read discussion of this by people who can think about this more clearly than me.

Distinguishing the act of child abuse from the instinct of paedophilia doesn't really answer where the instinct arises, but I think that's reasonable given Milly's earlier argument that we can't ever know if this is an instinct you are born with. However, perhaps the instinct is more common than we would like to think, with Ann Summers selling school girl uniforms and the trend to shave which IMO can only serve to make a woman look like a girl. These things must arise because men generally find them a turn on. I suspect they both reflect an existing instinct amongst some (many?) men and normalise it amongst society generally.

And CheerfulYank, I get that rage. I really do. But I suspect many women resist that urge because an abused child needs their mum to be available to them, and not in jail. (Obviously this argument doesn't apply in the case they realise there is current ongoing abuse).

And if I go to jail for it I'll serve every day with a smile on my face.

I am getting to this point CheerfulYank. If I could trust the court system to deliver justice then that would be a different story. But I can't. The amount of judges who make statements defending paedophiles and rapists just boggles my mind, really and truly.
The system we live in known as patriarchy lets these men get away with it when I belive if we lived in a non-patriarchal society they would get their come uppance and the rate of these incidences would go down. Obviously porn contributes to the problem too, puts the idea in men's heads to a certain extent.. that's why murderers and rapists often re-enact a scene they've watched in porn.

well as someone who has been the victim of sexual abuse at the hands of my step-father (I was eight), I find this intellectualising of the issue pointless.

In my opinion it was about power and control. These men are often narcissists who see the child merely as an extension of themselves. They have no love, no empathy. The child serves their sick needs, that is all.

I do not believe they are born, but made. Comparing it to homosexuality is absurd and cruel to gay people. Abusers were usually abused themselves but this does not excuse repeating the cycle.

By far the majority of paedophiles are men. What sexually turns them on (and I feel sick typing this) is not the child inherently. It is the power and manipulation they can gain over such a small, helpless victim. A grown woman can try to fight at least, or has adult maturity to realise what is wrong. A child can be emotionally manipulated, completely subjugated.

They are turned on by this kind of control because they had no sense of self as children. They are very damaged, highly dangerous individuals.

Not all abused children go on to abuse; most don't. What is it about the ones that do, that makes them different? Could that be an "innate" thing, perhaps?

Oldlady, I suspect the difference is similar to what makes one person fall apart when a loved-one dies, and another person soldiers on. Life experience, from childhood onwards. An abused child who breaks the cycle may have other influences to cushion them in a way that others don't have.

Addressbook -

Paedophilia, as I understand it, is about the deviation from the path of natural sexual maturation. Something happens that means the individual does not create successful relations with his peers sexually and therefore remains stunted at that age of sexual development thus predisposing him to a preference for individuals of a simialr age as he goes on into adulthood.

E.g. boy gets mocked about his willy age 9, his sexual identity is affected and thus his sexual growth as an individual, he goes on to feel only able in maintaining sexual relationships with individuals age under 9. Roughly speaking.

Child abuse can be paedophilic or not. It may be about power and not paedophilia. In the former instance (power not paedophilia) this may be part of a person's psyche for as long as they can remember and rooted in personality, genetics and environment of upbringing (as close as you could get to 'born an abuser'). One could be a child abuser because of life experience and 'not born an abuser' but 'made'.

Any abuser makes a choice to abuse but some (myself included) might argue that the power to make good choices may be seriously lacking in some individuals due to the fight within oneself to correct innate and wrong desires in order to uphold morality. This is clearly a minority view.

There is an argument that there is such a thing as resilience genes. Some will be completely overwhelmed by abuse, even repeat the cycle. Others will break the cycle despite some degree of damage

Yes life factors may feature as well. It is probably quite complicated.

hobbgoblin - but that tries to seperate two issues which I believe are connected. Paedophilia is rooted in desire for power. The attraction to a smaller, less sexually developed being. I do not believe any person would look at a child in that way unless there were warped thought processes (probably rooted in childhood abuse).

Maybe addressbook, but the theory on sexual identity and development and its association with paedophilia is not about using power or dominance as an adult in order to overcome feelings of rejection. It is literally about being stunted at a certain age so that budding sexuality at a young age and the associated feelings of sexual wellbeing at that age become the feelings of sexual satisfaction as an adult.

i.e. if you were merrily developing sexually as a child - enagaging in age appropriate sexual play such as sexual touching as an infant, doctors and nurses as a primary school child or sexual touching as a teen or pre-teen but something goes wrong...you stay at the stage where your sexual exploration felt satisfying and do not move beyond that sexual age as it were in terms of the age of objects of your desire

Interesting, if unsettling, reading.

I was on the thread referred to by the OP and have been pondering that same comment.

In some ways it does make sense to me-
most people are born straight
fewer are born gay
a minority are born paedophiles.

(I don't think this should be an idea that is insulting to homosexuals btw - it is about sexual desire, which we all have, and where it is directed/ Obviously when it comes to consenting adults that is not in any way problematic.)

Are we saying that this is not the case and that it is purely about control and power rather than a sexual attraction that is in-built?

What about those individuals who look at child porn (or fantasise about children). This doesn't involve power/control directly. Is it simply the same desire to control that has not been fully acted on? Must that always be nurture rather than nature?

I think the delusional idea that the paedophile has that they haven't done anything wrong is not an uncommon one which is why it can be so hard to rehabilitate - as it's just the way they are iyswim.

I really don't know but am very interested, if a little disturbed, to read your opinions.

i agree with Sakura[good posts Sakura]
id also like to add-
i think we need to change the way society sees "victims"of abuse[oh i hate that word]
we are seen a bit like"spoilt goods""ruined"and broken.
we cant really talk about it as its a embarressment and awkward for others.
people would rather pretend it dont happen.
people put theyre heads in the sand cos if they dont they would have to accept that it could be theyre own sis/mum/auntie/gran and little people who this could/has happened to[and male family members]-not everything happens on telly -its real.
abuse can be like a horrible stepping stone to more abuse.
it dont always stop with the first bastard-it can go on and on.
a child who has been abused is open to more abuse,
in this-if they get angry-its THEM who are seen as mad/bad or uncrontrollable.!!
if they try and block it out with drink/drugs/self harm/food probs ect ect-
its THEM-who get it in the neck-everytime.
lock them up and shut them up eh!
give them psyc meds and send a sw round-cos its them who are in the wrong!!!
people who have been abused are actually very strong people-its the abusers who are weak-this needs to be aknowledged.
society needs to change the way them look at abuse-theyve got it all topsy turvey.
its only when this happens then the person who has been abused will stop being the"victim"and stop having to appologise all the way-
and others will drop theyre blinkers and help to stand up to our useless court system -and the patriarchy.
this might not happen though as a lot of people who have been abused are keeping people in jobs-ah the bloody patriarchy eh!
society needs to wake up-and we as feminists need to come together and help them wake up.
not sit here basiccally quibbling over what is the bestest paedoophile[this is what it feels like]
fuck them-theyve got the patriarchy on theyre side.
when are people going to stop fucking off the people who have been abused?
dont try to understand the abusers-try and understand the people who have been abused instead!

hobb - interesting theory. It's Freudian, I presume? Sounds very much so.

addressbook - I'm always very wary of claims that genes drive personality traits. There is obviously a massive amount of information that we don't know yet about how genes (and epigenes ) function. But you can usually trace real personality traits back to nurture. (I say 'real' traits as opposed to weird quirks, which always come up in twin studies).

just over 25 years ago i was talking to this young fella[he was my friend]
he had just come out of prison[petty crime-but im not condoning crime]
he said all the rapists ect were segregrated but they all had tellys/radios/and privledges-the rest of them had nothing.
2 years ago i was talking to a young fella who had just come out of prison-
the rapists were mingling with everyone else and being treated just like everyone else by all.
just shows you!

There are "specialist" prisons for sex offenders too. I used to live near one. They do have rehab programs in place but prisoners have to want to participate - many don't want too as they don't consider themselves to have a problem that they need or want to resolve.

oh gooddy--theyre very own prison.
and they cant even consider themselves to have a problem-
why are they there then?
funny enough i have my own prison also-so do many others.
they will come out-we never will.

Oh I'd much prefer it if they never came out tbh.

I think it is positive that some attempt is being made to rehabilitate. Better than doing nothing.

I'm sorry for your pain.

oh dont be sorry for my pain-my pain is my anger that keeps me fighting-
btw-im not fighting with you
i dont want to fight with anyone on here-i just want to be heard.
my fight is elsewhere.

Oh I hear ya!

Your post above re changing the way "victims" of abuse are seen is thought provoking. You're right it is all topsy turvy. Had never given it a thought and yet it seems so obvious.

-good.
everytime we speak up and someone hears-we are a step nearer to winning the fight.
and maybe in years to come there wont be no more women yelling to be heard.
we can then put yesterdays children/women to rest and find peace in ourselves.
nite nite-im glad someones heard and i can go to sleep with a bit of peace tonight-thankyou molly.
x

Don't know if I'm wildly out of date here, but there used to be (20-odd years ago) talk of abuse/rape survivors, rather than "victims". When did this change? Is it because some/many rape/abuse victims don't actually feel they have "survived" because/if they experience other, related-to-abuse problems? (Eg food/body dysmorphic issues...)

i dont think its ever changed oldladyknowing.
the words might of changed but the attitude towards people who have been abused hasnt.
i feel that i have suvived but society puts me into a "victim box!
i also feel that all the related stuff is because of this aswell.
can you see what im saying?

sparky I understand. I am a survivor. I survived more through luck than judgement. But I namechanged because I don't want this history attached to my normal username. I know it will colour how people "see" me (as a victim). For the same reason no one outside my DP and very closest friend knows my abuse history. It's such a big part of myself, it has shaped in many ways who I am, but I must hide it all the time.

I admire people like you who can be angry and shout about it. It needs to be shouted about.

Otherwise I am reading and thinking a lot about this thread. But I am not as good at arguing these things as many women here, so am reading more than posting. hobb under that theory, surely it would require more than a bit of teasing about your willy aged 9 to stunt sexual development?

yep-exactly Namechange-
i can see why you namechanged and this is exactly partly what im on about.
[in general]
untill we can change the way that people who have been abused are seen
i dont think that we can change things really.
post away if you want to namechange-it all helps.