The pathologicalisation of women

[ChristinedePizan]

Okay, that's not entirely a real word but I wanted to start a thread about understanding why women are so undermined, and the historical roots behind it. My thoughts were that we could all chuck stuff in and so build a virtual library showcasing the ways in which women have been undermined and pathologised over the last hundred or so years.

First up is Cesare Lombroso, a noted criminologist who was highly respected. He died in 1909 but his ideas were given a huge amount of credibility long after his death. This is what he had to say about women:

"Women have many traits in common with children; that their moral sense is deficient; that they are revengeful, jealous, and inclined to vengeances of a refined cruelty. In ordinary cases, these defects are neutralised by piety, maternity, want of passion, sexual coldness, by weakness and an undeveloped intelligence. But when a morbid activity of the psychical centres intensifies bad qualities of women, and induces them to seek relief in evil deeds; when piety and maternal sentiments are wanting, and in their place are strong passions and intensely erotic tendencies, much muscular strength and a superior intelligence for the conception and eecution of evil, it is clear that the innocuous semi-criminal present in the normal woman must be transformed into a born criminal more terrible than any man."

So in summary, clever, unmarried, childless women are pretty much the epitome of evil.

Yes, vicious circle, queen. Perpetual trap. Makes me think of Irigaray's analysis (I can hear dittany spitting ) of Hegel's biology and his reading of Antigone where she picks up on his naming women "the eternal irony of the community"', because they are both necessary to social life (that is, they bear children and future [male] citizens), but at the same time they undermine the "perfect" state by threatening to draw men back into the family circle.

Actually, it's a feature of, for instance, Greek tragedy that a woman is being most womanly (i.e. mental) when she's acting like a man, e.g. Clytemnestra.

Can't win in a fixed game.

Just spotted wittier... should be "witter"... Stupid male, domineering auto-correct trying to tell me what to write.

"How do people reconcile their prejudices with their lived and loving realities?"

Prolesworth I don't know if this is helpful or not?????? but Winifred Wagner was very close friends with Hitler and there is plenty of documentary evidence that she hated jews and yet she saved quite a few on the basis that she liked and respected them. Her behaviour and position on this was perceived as rational.

From what I have read it seems that people are able to seperate their idealogy from everyday life. You have only to know that Himmler was a loving and dutiful father and yet sent millions of children to their deaths. In many of his letters he wrote sympathetically about individual jewish aquaintences.

Ah yes, I've just remembered that Aristotle thought that sperm supplied all the genetic matter for a baby and women were just cosy wombs. Though surely he must have noticed that children resembled their mothers?

Empirical fallacy is a good term. And alive and well of course, I spend much time arguing that just because girls/women seem X and boys/men seem Y doesn't mean they were biologically destined to be that way. This argument always surprises people, for some reason.

"state by threatening to draw men back into the family circle." there you have it, men are always flattering themselves !

Men have tried everything to take control for and the credit for reproduction. I think we see this now in the medicalisation of fertility, pregnancy and childbirth.

Good luck, Proles. if you express yourself even half as well as you do on these threads, you should do well.

Yes, Adorno. I have a soft spot for Adorno, and actually think Dialectic speaks powerfully to feminism with its critique of rationality and "enlightenment", which is explicitly described as male.

Ancient Greek literature is full of anxieties about paternity, MG, precisely because maternity is visible, while paternity is invisible.

Can't remember On the generation... very well (thank goodness), but I seem to recall he goes on and on about menstrual blood as the counterpart of semen...

celadon - I wish it was always so. I know quite a few people whose parents, etc., have never got over them being gay, for instance.

I'm glad I started this thread even though it makes me feel very ignorant - it's very interesting. I do remember studying Victorian attitudes towards women's mental and physical health at university but it was such a long time ago, it's all a bit hazy.

The mental health differences between men and women are fascinating.

Even if we took the stats at face value and didn't challenge prejudices surrounding diagnosis/treatment, etc, some interesting trends crop up.

Nearly all the women I've known on a personal level who suffer from depression share a common theme - the fact that they never get to switch off.

A man can have an incredibly stressful job but when he comes home he may be able to put his feet up, have dinner cooked for him, the kids put to bed etc. A woman with an incredibly stressful jon is far more like to have to come home and cook dinner, etc.

A SAHM is far less likely to switch off because her DH's role is seen as provider and hers as caregiver, and the trouble with the role of caregiver is that it's 24/7 while provider is set hours.

A single mother has to do it all anyway.

It is the total absence of a break (even on holidays) that eventually grinds many, many women down. I can't help feeling that excepting severe clinical depression and depressive illnesses that require medication, many women's depression would be massively relieved by having partners who pulled their weight around the home and with the kids. This isn't to downplay the seriousness of what women are feeling by the way. I think depression is a normal response to being overwhelmed by responsibility. I think the balance of responsibilities faced by women has been seriously downplayed by society.

"Yes Penthe, didn't Aristotle describe women as a 'naturally occurring deformation of men'?"

This is still a widespread belief and why the ridiculous question "Why do men have nipples?" still gets asked. The fact that males in species that follow the XY sex-determination system are basically modified (mutated?) females, is something that sits as deeply uncomfortable with many people.

This is because the core belief, that women are somehow modified, lesser men is central to our culture.

Christine I'm reading a book at the moment called 'Mad, Bad and Sad' by Lisa Appignanesi that you might find interesting - it's a history of the development of mental health sciences with particular focus on the experience of women. It's not especially feminist in outlook and so far has a definite tendency to focus on middle class women at the expense of the numerous working class who likely received much harsher treatment, but what I have found interesting is the idea that the various collections of symptoms observed and diagnoses formulated by (male) doctors through the centuries offer a kind of escape from prescribed femininity even as they conform to other aspects of it. Raving, shouting, nakedness, physical exertion, violence - all things that were deemed detrimental to womanhood outside the asylum, largely on the grounds that they would negatively affect the reproductive cycle Basically, being told to sit around and do nothing all day - not think, not exercise, not express an opinion - drove women 'mad', and they were then sent to institutions where these things were allowed under controlled circumstances, being considered cured when the urge had subsided.

Absolutely Prince, the tentacles are far-reaching.

Star - thanks for the recommendation, sound really interesting. I quite like Appignanesi even if she doesn't self-define as a feminist (as far as I know)

Male brains are different from female brains (See, dear, you're just not built to think logically)

Women with 'more testosterone' are less attractive (Japanese scientist finds Asian women more attractive than Black women.)

sorry, out of time - I've got a catalogue of this crap somewhere, can't find it!
(must be my scatty female brain)

Oh, what about Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus? How much damage has that Gray bloke done?!

Can someone please remind me of the book that explains how girls are conditioned from very early on to not use their bodies properly? IIRC it has a great explanation of how the 'girls can't throw', 'women have poor spatial awareness' etc things come from, and how all the bollocks about sitting with your legs together and not flashing your knickers actually hinders muscle memory and results in girls not being able to perform certain physical tasks, not because they are not physically capable, but because they have been told they can't (or shouldn't) from such an early age that it is almost hardwired into them.

Is it www.amazon.co.uk/Girls-Cant-Throw-Mitchell-Symons/dp/0593054040 ?

... it might not be! I've Just read the reviews.

gb - no, it's called something like 'The Gender, ermm, something....' That's doesn't really narrow the field in feminist books does it? :(

Anyway, it's very good. And it's all TRUE because I was deeply 'unladylike' as a child (still am) and as a result I can bench press my own weight (well, almost) and throw properly