Still in two minds about 'slut walk' but i thought this post was very good

[Sunshinetoast]

here

I have been in several minds about the whole 'slut walk' thing. Didn't like the name, or the idea of reclaiming a term that is so loaded with hatred. But then I know several women who felt inspired to act who had never been involved in active feminism before so that must count for something. (and I know that not everyone taking part is trying to reclaim anything).

I thought the article was thoughtful

dont' mean to post and run but my daughter is waking up...

I agree that there is a false black/ white dichotomy when it comes to women's bodies and sexuality. Which is why I believe that, as Sakura said, the Slutwalk's main success will unfortunately be to titillate rather than teach.

It's also why I disagree, snowmama, that the alternative to overtly sexual dressing is, as you say, "repressing" one 's sexuality. This is part of the false dichotomy. There's a broad 'sexuality' continuum in the way women can dress; it's not just a choice between either sluttish/ repressed.

Point taken re Alibhai not knowing (not necessarily ignoring) the backgrounds of the women on the parades, though this doesn't mean the whole article should be written off.

FWIW wrt my daughter, clothes and the 'sexuality continuum', I would advise DD to steer away from both ends of the spectrum.

that's good advice for our daughters Speedy... after all, what else can we do?

At the risk of being spectacularly grumpy as my lack of sleep is really starting to kick in... I dismissed the whole article because I don't agree with much of it and it irritated me, but accept I am not being entirely reasonable today.

absolutely nothing here makes me feel that we doing anything other but conforming.

1. "try not to have intercourse if possible"... do you really believe this Sakura? Sex with a well mannered man with an ability to please is not something I seek to avoid as a feminist.. I think it is a perfectly good way to pass the time.

I have a few friends who did have lesbian relationships for predominantly feminist reasons many years ago - for those who were actually bi/or gay it worked very well.. for those who were not it was actually a bit shit.

Fundamentally, you are telling that sex is something men want and we as women don't - or shouldnt. Which I really disagree with. This is not patriarchy telling me this (though it can tell me the same message in a variety of different ways)... this is feminists telling me this.

1. Re. the continuum. Who defines this and how do you enforce it?

- when your teenage daughter rocks up in a miniskirt and knee high socks is she appropriate or 'over-sexual'

• if she wears a dress and heels to go out - is she age appropriate or 'over-sexual'

- if as a result of confused and negative sex messages she withdraws into hiding behind shapless clothes to negate the responses she is recieving, is she being sensible or is this a sad reflection of our current society.

• or is wearing a pair of jeans and nice top the ideal solution?

How do you couch the discussion with her - 'don't dress like that because ...' It is the answer to the 'because' that I am interested in.

Simply saying there is a false dichotomy is not enough... how actually do we address and change it without any fundamental engagement with us as sexual beings?

Fundamentally, you are telling that sex is something men want and we as women don't - or shouldnt.

Noooooooooooooooononononononono.... you've absolutely missed my point there Please go back and re-read my posts

I am saying that men don't get pregnant, so they've got nothing to lose when they have intercourse... and I am beginning to wonder about this subject a lot these days, especially about abortion. Why are so many men so keen to stick their dicks into women...when it's not their neck on the line. Why do they put their dicks in places they know will create a baby? Would you do that to someone?

Women, on the other hand, are the ones who get pregnant. So it's not about enjoyment, it's about equality. There is no equality in intercourse for pleasure because it is only the woman shouldering the risk. She's risking her body and he's risking her body, but nobody is risking the man's body[If you're TTC that's a different story]

1.. well I added my disclaimer that life is too short, so just have it... but it would be an interesting experiment to see what the man in your life would say if you told him you'd like to try sex without intercourse... I mean, it's not as if men are going to get pregnant

I remember one feminist saying.. the question a man should ask after intercourse is not "Was it good" , it should be "was it WORTH it" . Was the pleasure you got from it WORTH the worry that you might now be pregnant? Or the risk of a condom splitting? Is an unwanted pregnancy WORTH the pleasure of intercourse?

I think for the man, intercourse is ALWAYS worth it... because there's no risk to his body.

Sakura.. thank you for being patient with my rantiness

I will re-read now, I do think I have misunderstood something along the line.. but yes accepted point about risk of body, would I do that to someone else -well honestly yes - if I am prepared to risk my own body, I would be prepared to risk someone elses (though obviously not without protection either way!!)

I do have an 'emotion only' significant friendship with a (single) man, it is an interesting dynamic... but I do have sex with other men .. so maybe that undermines my point a bit .. I don't know..

No, you're welcome.. thanks for reading my posts!

"if I am prepared to risk my own body, I would be prepared to risk someone elses"

See, I think there's a big difference between risking your own body and risking someone else's.

I enjoy reading your posts.. Sakura

But pregnancy is not the only risk.

STD's are risky for both, though there is more shared risk there (though stastically higher for women)... and so the notion of both taking on a risk (and being sensible about precaution) is not completely alien or theoretical.

Yes, you can argue that sex is cannot be about enjoyment with that argument. However, I can make a similar argument about having children - why risk my health, wealth and general sanity to have children - written down it is fairly illogical - yet often (not always) we are very pleased to do so.

Anyway, my brain is now officially mush, going home to sleep.

sorry xposted Prolesworth.. yes, but I not sure when I talk about female sexuality that I am only talking about PIV .. though that is fun too.

And yes - it is because of the bombardment of negative messages that I think we actually need an identifiable, positive representation of female sexuality.

But snowy, nobody is in charge of the continuum, it just is; created organically if you like, every time someone puts on a outfit.

As for "enforcing" the continuum, well it's the same thing. It's just a way of representing the way people dress in terms of sluttiness. You could similarly define a continuum for good and bad taste in clothing, or dark to light colours of clothing.

It is an interesting question how we teach our style/ dress values to our children. Obviously our values are personal, so IMO it should be no different from teaching them about other values. IMO the best way is to engage them in discussion about the issue, talking about their own observations as well as ours. It's important for them to see the different effects that different styles of dress have, so that they are well-informed and equipped to make wise choices. And all discussion should always be respectful of their views and independence.

Sounds terribly idealistic, doesn't it? Just like every other aspect of our hopes as parents.

It doesn't sound like at all Prolesworth, I am sure that a significant proportion of women can relate to that feeling for at least some of the time. I know I can. I am sorry if it sounds like I think this discussion is simplistic or un-problematic, because I don't feel that....I just feel that as you say a part of us is erased and lost.

My sexuality is also tied up to incidents, and my response now is tied to them, I know and accept this. It is just when I look at my beautiful baby girl, I want her to be able to develop her sexuality freely, to be able to confidently negotiate healthy sexual relationships, to be safe...and not responding to bad incidents or the bombardment of hypersexualised imagery around her, and I am scared she won't be able to.

Sorry Speedy ! Xposted.

...it does sound good, but more difficult (for my stupid binary mind)...if I don't have nice positive role models re. female sexuality...be it image, an actual woman what ever to point to.

Hey, no need for an apology!

I totally get where you're coming from about the bombardment of negative sexual imagery. I think it's a bizarre sort of sick obsession in our culture - like, you can't even sell ice cream to adults without having a woman pouting lasciviously and using the ice cream as a phallic prop. What a bunch of muppets we are!

I think that the way to counteract this sexual stupidity is by helping our kids to cut through the crap - having those discussions where we unpack the messages and poke fun at/ criticise the idiocy. Thank god kids are smart enough to see through this nonsense.

How's your tiredness? I sympathise hugely; sleep deprivation is bloody awful.

pregnancy is a HUGE HUGE issue.. it can't be magicked away with words. STDS... the woman is more likely to contract them from a man than the other way round.

The pill... have you read the side effects of it! I did at 15 and thought to myself "I am never touching that shite". I know of a woman in her thirties who had chest pains and the doctor thought she'd had a pulmonary embulism (sp?) and the first question he asked her was whether she was on the pill. Can you imagine?!?!?!?! All these women are out there putting their health and lives at risk so that men can stick their dicks into them without worrying.

As for abortion, men on the Left supported it because they wanted access to women's vaginas. I can't think of anything more cynical than that. Really.

Pregnancy is MASSIVE and the media tries to pretend it's not. Don't be duped!!! It's the problem with recreational sex, and with porn and prostitution. Sex is pleasurable, of course-- that's the reward nature gives us for reproducing... but lets not pretend it's in any way equal

"I think that the way to counteract this sexual stupidity is by helping our kids to cut through the crap - having those discussions where we unpack the messages and poke fun at/ criticise the idiocy. Thank god kids are smart enough to see through this nonsense."

Speedy the only way to counteract it is by getting women into politics so they can access power. I am an uber feminist and I am under no illusions about the strength of marketing and popular culture. It has nothing to do with the parents and everything to do with the culture. It's what's called a backlash

BTW please read "Backlash" by susan faludi. it's brilliant!

Sure Sakura, which is why apart from when trying to TTC with my xH, I have never had sex without either male or female condoms... though I admit through some (but not) all of the time have also been on the pill.

• Also lack contraceptive choice is a fixable problem - just zero push within society for alternative (male?) safe contraception

That sex impacts on women differently, is not necessarily a problem in itself - it is how society treats it.

I will admit, I am still trying to work out what the logical conclusion of what you are saying is it:

1. women should be respected more sexually because they bear more of the risk (agreed) and should be reflected how society treats women ?

1. Are we saying that as women, we should always see having sex as some sort of compromise? Not sure I will ever agree then, I just see it as a fundamental to me, as something I have the right to enjoy safely and as it is the right for any other woman to engage with as little or as much as they want.

Supporting your posts, smowmama :)

I can't bring myself to read all the posts in detail; I'm so tired of feeling frustrated by the overall impression here that, if I think Slutwalk is OK, I'm missing the point of feminism. I very much like Florence's reality, that not all women have the same experience even if they are all feminists.

For me - not all women - Slutwalk is a reasonably successful effort to say "We are women, we are sexual, and that IS NOT BAD." It says "I know what you mean when you say Slut, and I say you have no right to attribute a moral value to my clothing." And, more, "It's not your right to say what I may wear in public or in private. If I want to show off, that's not an invitation to rape." Which is, of course, the main point.

I've been verbally and physically attacked a lot in my time; I can be a very irritating woman! I've been called bitch, slut/slag, etc, etc with the same level of hatred as I've been called 'feminist'. I stand up for my right to be what those men mean by their words - and against their assumed right to enact judgement against me for it.

Talking to myself
I keep thinking about this, and all the discussions on here about 'pejorative' words used against women. What does slut actually mean? IS it pejorative?

Sexually available - yes, why not?
Promiscuous - Maybe, and why not?
Wearing skimpy clothes - Yes, and? It's fashion.
Asking to be sexually assaulted - Not.

If a woman wants to be sexually assaulted (and I have seen such women, whatever their problems may have been), she tends to approach her targets with specific invitations.

There is nothing in sexual availability, promiscuity, dress or any other non-verbal, non-specific invitation that warrants the assumption a woman is 'asking' to be assaulted. That assumption is purely a construct in the minds of misogynistic men. Therefore, the word itself and its connotations are all invalid.

"I am a slut" can only be a self-pejorative statement in the eyes of such men, or of women who share their ideas (chastity, modesty, proscrbed behaviours).
So the slutwalkers are right, imo.

As it happens, I'm not a slut these days. But I was, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Sorry garlicbutter, having a tricky day.

I am probably a little more ambivalent about defining myself as a slut ( ie I don't ......)

however do I claim the right to be a promiscuous woman (as defined in current society), in safety and on my terms , then yes I do...and I remain unconvinced by the argument that makes me more adherant to patriarchy than if I was celibate ( the only other option available to me, as I have taken a vow never to do 'traditional' relationship again )

Heh, snowmama, me too - celibate for now (for a verry long time actually, but it's not a vow or anything) and definitely not doing that couple thing again. When I was a 'slut' it was on my own terms and with no moral or ethical compromise. It's about claiming our legal & human freedoms, isn't it?

Hope your tricky day clears up.