Banning girls from wearing skirts to school

[Northernlurker]

Hi

I just want to get my thoughts in order about this. Basically I have heard on the grapevine that dd1's school is wanting to ban girls from wearing skirts because they have found it impossible to ensure the skirts are of 'on the knee' length.

I am not happy about this because the arguement against short skirts is that it is 'inappropriate', it is seen in some way as a sexual and moral statement. I think this is sexist bollocks. You should not judge anybody's situation by their clothing. Dd1 has been told that her skirt is currently 'borderline'. I bought itin the Autumn term and she's grown since. I am horrified that her school seems to be saying she' 'borderline' between virtuous and slutty. It's a skirt, it covers her bottom, it's not a hazard and it's only unsafe if violent men choose to look only at the skirt, transfer their warped and vile standards to it and then act violently.

What does everyone else think?

[GrimmaTheNome]

Why would you take that away from them by teaching them that being more like a boy will make them happier?....which is exactly what feminism teaches.

That's never been my understanding of it.

The point is simply not to be categorized and limited by gender (and this works both ways except obviously men are limited when it comes to reproduction.)

1. We can/will work in whatever field suits our talents and inclinations
   
2. We can/will dress in whatever way makes us feel good about ourselves (within standards of practicality and any applicable uniform).
   
3. We can/will talk just like the men (if we want to, but whyever limit ourselves to that).
   

As to the last para ... ridiculous. There were 'unloved, unprotected' girls before feminism. The difference then was they had no voice, no vote.

[TrillianAstra]

girls are girls because they are born that way

Girls are girls, yes, but "that way" is open to interpretation.

Feminism to me is about rejecting the idea that "girls are less good at maths because they are born that way" or "girls like pink because they were born that way" or "girls do less well in the workplace because they were born that way" or "girls say no to mens advances when really they do want to because they were born that way".

Far fewer of the traits that we associate with femininity are born that way traits than are social constructs. Where they are not innate we (women and men as well) should be able to choose to embrace them or reject them on an individual level and not have it assumed that just because we are girls (or boys) we must like or be good at certain things and dislike or be bad at others.

[TimeWasting]

I like to set a standard of humanity in my home.


On the topic of skirts/uniforms, I have noticed and been pleased to see a veritable cavalcade of bicycles streaming down from the local secondary school every day.
It's only this week I noticed that it's all boys. Even the girls who are in trousers aren't on bikes, presumably it's not considered 'feminine'. Or those stupid "shoes" they're all wearing will fall off, or their hair will get messed up.

[TrillianAstra]

Loads of girls on bikes round my way. With giant wicker baskets.

The fashion is for big fluffy hair anyway so I expect a bit of bike-wind help :o

[TimeWasting]

Everyone rides bicycles down your way though.

[Grumpla]

Are you in Cambridge by any chance Trillian? my friend lives there and when I visit I always notice the much higher proportion of female cyclists there! When I commuted by bike I was very much the anomaly, would regularly see maybe ten, fifteen other cyclists en route all of whom were male.

[GrimmaTheNome]

(Grumpla - but can you do it overarm? )

[GrimmaTheNome]

The schoolgirls might prefer walking to cycling because its more sociable - I often see groups of girls walking along chatting, boys less so. So - while the relative practicality of their uniform might be an issue - there could also be a rather more positive reason for the difference.

[TimeWasting]

I see plenty of boys walking along chatting sociably. And the boys on bikes are generally in groups.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Why on earth do you think feminism's aim is to make women more like men, priest? If you do any actual research, you will find that feminism is about making sure women are not treated as being inferior to men. And that's the end of it. Feminists are free to act and dress as feminine as they choose.

As for banning skirts, well, as others have said, it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I hate seeing short skirts on school girls. I hate seeing short skirts or other revealing clothes on any woman. To me, it just says that woman only sees her worth in terms of her appearance and her attractiveness to men. It's not about potential threat of assault, just self-respect.

Schools should just have better uniform policies and keep skirts at a modest length. Girls should be at school to get an education and make sure they have a future, not flaunt their bodies to get approval of their peers.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Just wondering in that - do you think girls wear short skirts more for 'attractiveness to men' or more from peer pressure?

I'm wondering whether the ability of my DDs school to manage a pragmatic middle line with their uniform is helped by it being an all-girls school or if that's not really relevant. But thinking back I can't remember anyone when I was at school (mixed) being particularly interested in their attractiveness to boys. Not that our uniform (an A-line tunic!) left much scope for modification.

[nickelbabe]

I'd say more peer pressure than attractive to men.
It's a kind of rebellion, isn't it? Older women were long, boring skirts, so teenagers wear short ones, because they're not boring.
long skirt = old lady
short skirt = young, cool woman.
that's how I saw it as a teenager - it had nothing to do with boys, because let's face it, boys were pests who we could do without.

[redvelvetmooncupcake]

Skirts are not part of the uniform at our local high school. I'm a bit about it. We could wear trousers at my school but I didn't as they never fitted me once I got past the age of about 13 and had a 13 inch difference between my waist and my hips! I still don't ever wear them, they are uncomfortable and unflattering for me and the thought of having to buy a pair brings me out in a cold sweat. I see a lot of the girls in ill-fitting, uncomfy looking trousers and the kids all look far too hot in summer, why can't they choose a skirt or shorts if they want to?

I think there should be more choice for boys and girls. They can choose to wear trousers, long shorts or a kilt-style skirt, then it's equal opps for kids to choose what is most comfy for them. I'd bring back culottes meself! Practical and they feel so nice and swishy :)

The uniform posties wear would make a good school uniform template, they look comfy.

I'm not keen on the way uniforms are enforced, it's very petty sometimes, but obviously getting rid of it altogether has its own set of difficulties. And as a parent I must confess I am looking forward to the time when I can buy uniform, cheap and easy.

[redvelvetmooncupcake]

Oh yes, that's what I should have said. Wearing trousers made me much more self-conscious about my body and frankly they are more arse-tastic than all but the shortest tightest skirt. Ankle length and bum grazers both had their day during my school time, totally independently of actual fashion trends if I recall!

And polyester trousers blee.

[nickelbabe]

yes, agree totally, redvelvet - whenever I wear trousers, I feel like my arse is twenty times the size of the moon, and everyone can see it.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Hard for me to comment on why girls wear short skirts, cos when I was at school we had very strict uniform policy so no short skirts. I doubt I would have worn a short skirt cos I had huge legs. We weren't allowed to wear trousers, I wish we had been.

Do you think schoolgirls really are oblivious to the sexual side of how they dress?

I'm just not a fan of excessive bare flesh on anyone, really, whether it be schoolgirls in skirts or white van men with no shirts on! Yuk!!

Perhaps I'm just hopelessly old-fashioned.

[MoreBeta]

TBH I am not sure why this thread is in Feminism.

Some 30 years ago I was regularly to be found as a senior prefect stopping junior boys in the corridor as they passed my office and telling them to tuck in their shirt, lengthen their tie, pull up their trousers, clean their shoes, comb their hair. It was an all boys school.

School uniform is there for very good reasons and enforcing it is important for good cohesion in a school community. It is also an important part of growing up to learn what is appropriate clothing in different circumstances.

It is quite clear to me that there are people on this thread who do not believe in school uniform and hence your children take their cue and flout the rules.

Trousers for girls seem like a sensible practical idea. Girls do often freely choose to wear trousers in their own leisure time so why not at school?

[redvelvetmooncupcake]

Ooh, I just remembered an ex of mine who HATED wearing trousers. Unless the weather was truly vile he much preferred long shorts, and he told me that he used to roll his school trousers up under the desk!

Also see that excellent child in the news recently who wore a skirt to school to protest that he had to wear long trousers all the time. I think kids go to school to learn and have fun and for that they need to be comfortable.

It does make me uncomfortable that banning skirts is to do with sex. Why not ban boys from making comments and grabbing girls' arses? WTF are we not educating BOYS that they do not have a right to comment on female bodies? We can try with the girls til we're blue in the face but we need to work on the boys if we'll ever topple this idea that as a female your worth is measured by how fuckable you are. The current trend towards young males becoming obsessive about their appearance is nothing to do with equality, it's a giant step back for humans IMO.

Forgive me if I sound confused, because I am a bit :( I think that kids should dress for comfort at school though and that girls should not be told they are too sexy IYSWIM, why don't they just say that if your skirt is above the knee you have to wear tights or leggings under it? Our head of year used to hand out packets of vile american tan tights to transgressors, they didn't do it again and the retailers of wooly tights were quids in!

[redvelvetmooncupcake]

But some boys would choose to wear shorts or kilts in their own leisure time so why can't a skirt be a choice for both? I'm just sayin'. I don't want kids going to school dressed like Jessie J either, but to say that "you girls can't be trusted not to show your bum cheeks to the boys so none of you can wear a skirt" is a trifle heavy handed IMO, and it does come under the umbrella of feminist discussion because of the "sexual" nature of it, it's in the arena of wearing a miniskirt = asking for it.

[nickelbabe]

i fully agree with you - it's like saying "oh well, boys aren't capable of changing their actions or feelings, therefore the girls must stop encouraging them"

smacks very much to me of those who think that a woman asks to be raped because she's wearing provocative clothing or acting in a certain manner.

[TimeWasting]

Wearing skirts to school seems so odd to me. I suppose, because all my FE/HE education required us to wear clothes we could move about comfortably in.
I see skirts as limiting mobility and feel like some sort of princess (ie. useless ornament) when I wear one now.

How can these girls possibly join in with the football at break?

[MoreBeta]

Do girls really want to wear short skirts to school to attract boys? I'm not sure that is the case at all.

Boys wear their trousers half way down their backside to look cool and rebellious with their mates. Isn't short skirts just the same?

[Longtalljosie]

MoreBeta - yes you're absolutely right.

Priest - you and I have very different ideas of what constitutes "facts". But here's something for you to think about. I read an article a couple of years ago where convicted rapists talked to a women's magazine about how they went about targeting women. Length of skirt? No. One said he always looked out for women on their way home from work, because they were on autopilot, and therefore less aware of their surroundings, and physically tired. Rapists are rapists. They rape. The factors you are talking about are more what their defence lawyers use to try to get them off.

NL - I can't believe it's that time already...

[GrimmaTheNome]

Trousers for girls seem like a sensible practical idea. Girls do often freely choose to wear trousers in their own leisure time so why not at school?

No reason - most schools do allow them as an option. As mentioned earlier, trousers are not always a practical choice for a young woman, and many choose not to wear them. The OPs problem was not with girls wearing trousers but that they were being given no option. And this is in Feminism because its not merely about conforming to uniform standards, its about whether wearing a short skirt has sexual implications.

[nickelbabe]

TimeWasting - really?
not laughing at you, just thinking about my own attitude to skirts - I climb up all over the place, even now, with skirts on (i don't wear trousers at all, except for gardening), and I've never felt they've limited what I can do.