Banning girls from wearing skirts to school

[Northernlurker]

Hi

I just want to get my thoughts in order about this. Basically I have heard on the grapevine that dd1's school is wanting to ban girls from wearing skirts because they have found it impossible to ensure the skirts are of 'on the knee' length.

I am not happy about this because the arguement against short skirts is that it is 'inappropriate', it is seen in some way as a sexual and moral statement. I think this is sexist bollocks. You should not judge anybody's situation by their clothing. Dd1 has been told that her skirt is currently 'borderline'. I bought itin the Autumn term and she's grown since. I am horrified that her school seems to be saying she' 'borderline' between virtuous and slutty. It's a skirt, it covers her bottom, it's not a hazard and it's only unsafe if violent men choose to look only at the skirt, transfer their warped and vile standards to it and then act violently.

What does everyone else think?

[TimeWasting]

It's that arbitrary nature of school uniform that made me rebel against it as a teen.

[nooka]

It was a wet and rainy day today here (our weather has gone to pot) and all the kids on the way to our local high school were wearing jeans. None of the schools here have uniform, they have a strong sense of loyalty/belonging and no one seems to have any great problem with adjusting to work wear.

MoreBeta, it's your account of prefects essentially bullying younger children about their clothing (as if it matters in any way if your shirt is untucked) that really makes me dislike school uniform as a concept. Teens don't 'need' to rebel, all the petty rules about uniform seem to be there to enforce a 'rules for the sake of rules' and I think more often than not lead to teenagers despising their teachers (especially given that the teachers are themselves wearing clothes of their own choice, which more often than not aren't particularly smart).

[GrimmaTheNome]

And the point is, its what they often wear when given a free choice. Most of them don't actually want to flash their knickers.

[nickelbabe]

yes, that's a practical solution.

so they can still wear their skirts, but havce a modesty block on too.

[GrimmaTheNome]

I've just realised one of the problems with school uniform is that none of them seem to allow leggings. Out of school uniform you'll see girls with short skirts but they nearly always have leggings under.

[nickelbabe]

only a long one.
I was thinking knee length - long enough to hide knickers, and short enough not to go in the wheel/pedal

[TimeWasting]

But a floaty skirt is then a safety hazard.

[nickelbabe]

riding bikes - I used to have a scooter skirt - like a pari of shorts at the back (but with a pleat, so it still looked like a skirt) , and a flap at the front so it looked like a skirt all round, but you didn't flash your knickers on a bike.
It was a pattern my mum had from the 60s/70s.
I've seen a modern equivalent "skort", but it looks more like shorts that are pretending to be a skirt, mainly because it looks like shorts at the back.

that's a great compromise. (or culottes as mentioned before)

but, agian, a floaty skirt will hide anything that shouldn't be shown when you're riding a bike

[nickelbabe]

sorry, not "would have been less exposed.", but "would have felt less exposed."

[nickelbabe]

no, I like to be in the right clothes for the occasion.
(plus, with performing arts, it feels more like you're playing something if you change to do so)

I remember when I went to a first aid course, we were told to wear trousers or shorts because we'd be doing the recovery position.
I only had a short pair of shorts (that weren't hideously scruffy and coverred in mud - this was a work thing, after all!) and it was the first time I'd worn them.
I felt so huge-arsed and self-conscious (i've actually not worn them since, it was so bad), that i wish I'd just worn a longer, full (ie lots of fabric) skirt instead.
would have been less exposed.

[Himalaya]

Timewasting -

Re: your observation of girls not riding bikes. I had noticed that. Far fewer women and girls riding bikes around here. It doesn't seem to be the done thing amongst school girls anymore. Which makes me . I loved the independence of being able to go around on my bike as a teenager and not having to depend on parents or bus timetables. Still do....

I wonder if it is to with the fashion for perfect, straight hair, and therefore not wanting to wear a helmet? We were just much less groomed in the 80s, and helmets were not quite so ubiquitous.

FWIW I think a short skirt is the safest thing to wear on a bike. It draws attention almost as much as a high-viz vest . Not sure quite how that relates back to the school uniform skirt debate debate though!

[edam]

I think uniform for teenagers is a jolly good thing because it gives them something safe to rebel against. If you are putting all your energy into customising your uniform, you aren't putting that energy into more risky forms of rebellion.

[TimeWasting]

Oh yeah, we could do it however we liked, bring a change of clothes etc. but why bother?
I prefer to be ready for action at all times.

[nickelbabe]

I can run upstairs in a maxi - you just hoick it up.

Yes, you're right, performing arts aren't good in skirts for some things - but then there should be the option of bringing alternative clothing, or wearing PE kit.

even now, though, I get up ladders and stuff with a skirt on - if anyone's got a problem, I just say "you shouldn't be looking then, should you, then you wouldn't know!"

[TimeWasting]

nickelbabe, skirts are not great for doing performing arts classes and maxi skirts are dangerous when attempting to run up stairs for instance.

A line knee length skirts I wore in primary skirts weren't too bad, if you didn't mind flashing your knickers when doing handstands, but I don't think I'd get away with that now.

[MoreBeta]

i really think we need to move away from the 'sex' and 'asking for it' issue on this. It is a red herring and stops a proper debate happening.

We have 3 private schools in our city.

One is a girls only convent school, where the dress code is rigorously enforced. No one wears a short skirt. They look very very smart.

The other two schools are co educational and adherence to uniform code is very poor and getting noticeably worse in the last few years. The other co educational school has much better adherence albeit not perfect. This judgement applies to both boys and girls.

We have just moved our DSs to the coeducational school where there is better adherence to uniform and this issue really matters to us - which is why I joined the thread. I really want schools enforce the dress code for boys and girls. It matters a lot to me and DW because we think a uniform signals 'serious purpose'. A school that doesn't care enough to enforce uniform makes us think it doesn't care about other things.

Girls and boys need to learn that dressing appropriately, formally and smartly is what the world of work often requires. Nothing wrong with that between 9 -5 and then dressing for yourself (and other people if you wish) after hours and weekends.

[nickelbabe]

TimeWasting - really?
not laughing at you, just thinking about my own attitude to skirts - I climb up all over the place, even now, with skirts on (i don't wear trousers at all, except for gardening), and I've never felt they've limited what I can do.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Trousers for girls seem like a sensible practical idea. Girls do often freely choose to wear trousers in their own leisure time so why not at school?

No reason - most schools do allow them as an option. As mentioned earlier, trousers are not always a practical choice for a young woman, and many choose not to wear them. The OPs problem was not with girls wearing trousers but that they were being given no option. And this is in Feminism because its not merely about conforming to uniform standards, its about whether wearing a short skirt has sexual implications.

[Longtalljosie]

MoreBeta - yes you're absolutely right.

Priest - you and I have very different ideas of what constitutes "facts". But here's something for you to think about. I read an article a couple of years ago where convicted rapists talked to a women's magazine about how they went about targeting women. Length of skirt? No. One said he always looked out for women on their way home from work, because they were on autopilot, and therefore less aware of their surroundings, and physically tired. Rapists are rapists. They rape. The factors you are talking about are more what their defence lawyers use to try to get them off.

NL - I can't believe it's that time already...

[MoreBeta]

Do girls really want to wear short skirts to school to attract boys? I'm not sure that is the case at all.

Boys wear their trousers half way down their backside to look cool and rebellious with their mates. Isn't short skirts just the same?

[TimeWasting]

Wearing skirts to school seems so odd to me. I suppose, because all my FE/HE education required us to wear clothes we could move about comfortably in.
I see skirts as limiting mobility and feel like some sort of princess (ie. useless ornament) when I wear one now.

How can these girls possibly join in with the football at break?

[nickelbabe]

i fully agree with you - it's like saying "oh well, boys aren't capable of changing their actions or feelings, therefore the girls must stop encouraging them"

smacks very much to me of those who think that a woman asks to be raped because she's wearing provocative clothing or acting in a certain manner.

[redvelvetmooncupcake]

But some boys would choose to wear shorts or kilts in their own leisure time so why can't a skirt be a choice for both? I'm just sayin'. I don't want kids going to school dressed like Jessie J either, but to say that "you girls can't be trusted not to show your bum cheeks to the boys so none of you can wear a skirt" is a trifle heavy handed IMO, and it does come under the umbrella of feminist discussion because of the "sexual" nature of it, it's in the arena of wearing a miniskirt = asking for it.

[redvelvetmooncupcake]

Ooh, I just remembered an ex of mine who HATED wearing trousers. Unless the weather was truly vile he much preferred long shorts, and he told me that he used to roll his school trousers up under the desk!

Also see that excellent child in the news recently who wore a skirt to school to protest that he had to wear long trousers all the time. I think kids go to school to learn and have fun and for that they need to be comfortable.

It does make me uncomfortable that banning skirts is to do with sex. Why not ban boys from making comments and grabbing girls' arses? WTF are we not educating BOYS that they do not have a right to comment on female bodies? We can try with the girls til we're blue in the face but we need to work on the boys if we'll ever topple this idea that as a female your worth is measured by how fuckable you are. The current trend towards young males becoming obsessive about their appearance is nothing to do with equality, it's a giant step back for humans IMO.

Forgive me if I sound confused, because I am a bit :( I think that kids should dress for comfort at school though and that girls should not be told they are too sexy IYSWIM, why don't they just say that if your skirt is above the knee you have to wear tights or leggings under it? Our head of year used to hand out packets of vile american tan tights to transgressors, they didn't do it again and the retailers of wooly tights were quids in!

[MoreBeta]

TBH I am not sure why this thread is in Feminism.

Some 30 years ago I was regularly to be found as a senior prefect stopping junior boys in the corridor as they passed my office and telling them to tuck in their shirt, lengthen their tie, pull up their trousers, clean their shoes, comb their hair. It was an all boys school.

School uniform is there for very good reasons and enforcing it is important for good cohesion in a school community. It is also an important part of growing up to learn what is appropriate clothing in different circumstances.

It is quite clear to me that there are people on this thread who do not believe in school uniform and hence your children take their cue and flout the rules.

Trousers for girls seem like a sensible practical idea. Girls do often freely choose to wear trousers in their own leisure time so why not at school?