"Working for nothing"

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Probably just me.... but does anyone else get annoyed when a woman in a partnership says 'after I've paid for the childcare there's nothing left out of my wages'? The implication being that childcare is the woman's sole responsibility and that, if she doesn't stay home to do it herself, the cost of hiring someone else to look after the children is entirely hers... even if there is a wage-earning second parent. The conversation then goes on to something like....'I'd be better off if I stopped work'...or ... 'It's hardly worth me going out to work'. As if her contribution is totally negated and her job worthless.

More accurate to say that paying for child care reduces the household income in total. Shared cost, shared responsibility. But no-one ever phrases it that way. Wonder why.

just because those things are misogynistic too doesn't mean that the undervaluing of work that women tend to do isn't misogynistic in itself.

True, but I am not undervaluing that work. I personally value it highly - and it is vital, however, if I was to do a risk assesment as to whether I was personally prepared to do it (no matter how much I may enjoy it and benefit it would bring to my kids).

Overall, I would have to conclude 'no' - overall I protect myself and my children more by working. And that is a sad conclusion to draw within our current society.

Incidentally, apart from 2 hours cleaning support, and work hours childcare.. I actually still do all the domestic work....

.. and by 'working' I mean in 'working paid employment' - sorry bad typing

I am in this position. SAHM to 2 preschoolers, thinking about going back to work. I got contacted by a recruiter about a brilliant job, and I'm waiting to hear back about an interview date. However, when I totted it all up I realised the childcare would actually be a few hundred quid more than my take-home pay.

It's just a simple economic fact - if I work, our household income will go down.

In addition, I think the DDs will be less happy - they currently have a very nice life involving toddler groups, days out, playdates, DD1 in a lovely local preschool, DD2 still BF at 11 months. All this would have to change and they would both be in full-time nursery. DH will be less happy as instead of coming home to happy kids and food on the table he will come home to two knackered kids and a knackered mum trying desperately to cobble together some kind of healthy meal. And I know you will say it's not my job to cook blah blah but the fact of the matter is he works long hours and gets home at 7 at the earliest, so cooking dinner would still fall to me if we want to eat! (He does do his share of housework when he's home).

So, the only person who might be happier if I go back to work is me. But I fear that any happiness and satisfaction that I would get out of the job would be negated by the inevitable guilt I would feel about leaving the DDs and the stress and strain of trying to hold the family together and get everything done while working full time. Oh, and the loss of about 200 quid a month from our family finances which are already very stretched.

It's all very well having these theoretical discussions but we have to live in the real world and do what is right for our own individual circumstances.

Yes, Sybil.

snowmama I agree that in the system as it is, not being in paid employment is a risk but just being a woman and being of child-bearing age is a risk too. Even more so when you've actually () fulfilled your biological potential and gone on to have children. It's not right.

But because it isn't right means that it is even more wrong to judge those who do not fit into the system according to that system, IYKWIM?

The majority of women across the world do not have the luxury of choice.

From my perspective, this discussion is as far away from theoretical we can get. It is our lives every day.

Be it me working away from my kids and sobbing into my laundry over the weekends/late at night or you smallpotato feeling guilty about contemplating going back to work, or taking on the lions share of domestic work.

We are being systematically screwed and persuaded that it is our choice.

'We are being systematically screwed and persuaded that it is our choice.'

yes yes yes.

Mummyberryjuice and Bonsoir, OK, so you can view the SAHP work as 'valuable' because it provides a 'service' in kind that could otherwise be paid for. But what happens when the DC are out at school all day? Surely that's like the SAHP 'working' very reduced hours. Is there not then more 'value' in the SAHP going back to work?

I for one am not judging what people end up doing.

"We are being systematically screwed and persuaded that it is our choice."

Yes!!!!

We basically have no choice but are 'told' that WOH is our choice so we have to live with the guilt and long hours and overstretchedness or SAH is our choice so we have to put up with the risks of not being part of the system.

This is why radical feminism is SO important*

*Disclaimer: I know woefully little about radical feminism.

sorry Sybil, xposted.

pickled I am see the fact that I see that as 'time-in lieu' for the fact that I practically never get time off now

Oh, snow, I know you are not, but across this forum and society mothers are co tangly judged for the 'choices' they are forced to make.

Well I often say that I'm working for nothing because childcare care eats up anything I earn. I have friends where the male partner earns a lot and childcare is taken from his salary so the female partner despite earning a small wage isn't working for nothing.

Our situation is that all of dh's salary which is paid into a joint account (our money) is eaten up with mortgage, bills, commuting etc. My earnings and CB (which I won't get for much longer) are paid into my account which dh does not have access to. Childcare comes from my account, I can't take it from dh's account because its all gone, there is nothing there to pay for childcare. At the moment I am working for nothing, it is an accurate description of our family circumstances, its not anti-feminist, I can't describe it any other way. If anything I feel that dh gets a rough deal because he doesn't even have enough money to buy a pair of shoes he has to ask me for money for extras.

someone early on this thread, can't remember who, said that SAHMs were being short-termist in giving up work (I paraphrase). This is where the perception of judging comes from, I think.

Good god, pickled, if you made any sense of what I wrote, you're a mind reader.

I said that Sybil - but I was reflecting on the positing ' It is not worth me working/I am working for nothing'. My argument was from a purely financial point of view - actually it is.

The complexity comes when all other factors are considered - which is why I would say discussing it in terms 'working for nothing' is not very useful.

Mummy - yes indeed the women/mothers are judged very harshly for their choices.

Snowmama -

I agree this is far from theoretical. It is clear from this discussion and from that whole 'nuther thread and just from our experiences and those of our friends, that this is all too real.

I am not sure I can jump from that to the conclusion that we are being systematically screwed and persuaded that it is our choice though. It does seem to build up from individual choices. Understanding that seems crucial to figuring out how to change things at a systematic level

The choices that lead to this pattern are the ones we make well before we have children - what to train in, what sector to work in, how ambitious to be (although I suppose that is not a choice, in part it is a personality trait), and then who we choose to marry (if it is someone older, someone who earns more, someone who is more ambitious than you..) all this then leads to the calculation in a partnership that you will be financially better off if one partner takes on more childcare duties than the other, and from then on the road to financial inequality and lack of financial independence is hard to turn around from.

I agree with you and with CaptainBarnacles that it it should be far easier to reenter the world of work, work flexibly etc. But unless men take up these options as well as women it will just end up with segregation of work into the faststream and the mummy-stream. And those decisions about who goes back to work/takes time off take place around the kitchen table (and go back to A level/Uni choices/careers advice etc..) not the board room.

pickledsiblings - first and foremost, I don't have experience of DC being out at school all day and in all likelihood never will do - my DD does three-hour mornings and three-hour afternoons, four days a week, and I use the 1.5 hour lunch break to supplement her education (in various ways) and will continue to do so. And my DSSs, who are both at secondary school, have the irregular hours customary in French secondary schools and come and go at odd times. So there isn't a great big void to fill - on the contrary, I find it hard to fit everything I want and need to do into the very small amount of time available.

Himalaya, My mum and I have exactly this debate/argument all the time! She (old school feminist) fought for the right to work, equal opps etc etc.. she feels that there is a pattern of choices being made by women which undermines these wins. I think it is a fair challenge but do think that it doesnt totally take into consideration societal pressues and expectations being placed on women.

Changing those patterns is fairly fundemental and includes a lot:

• choosing careers
• expectations about relationships and marriage
• expectations/conceptions about motherhood
• the requirement for men to pick up the mantle.

Which makes me think we are discussing the symptoms not the causes (thought the impact of the symptoms is very real in our lives).

Bonsoir, it's not about filling a void, it's about doing a job that has economic value, albeit in kind.

No doubt there is still value to the family in being able to be at home whilst DC spend many hours away from the SAHP, but it is a little harder to 'justify' that in terms of the SAHP doing a job that someone else could be paid to do. (You could pay a tutor for the 1.5 hrs at lunchtime I suppose.)

I'm struggling with knowing whether or not it might be better for my DC to see me immerse myself in a career of sorts again whilst they are for the most part at school. Or whether being at home indefinitely will be best for everyone.

I think it is a mistake to focus on women's choices. What about men's choices? They are often a major contributing factor in these decisions. It seems to me that lots of women decide to SAH because they are the ones who have to exercise all the flexibility needed to combine work with kids, and are stretched way too thin.

For example, there are often threads on MN by SAHMs saying that their husbands won't take time off work when they (the SAHMs) are ill because they 'can't'. I am sure the husbands genuinely feel like they 'can't' take a day off work to look after their kids. But if they were single parents, they would have to take a day off if their kids or their carer (nanny/CM) were ill, just like lots of women have to take a day off for that reason. Yes, it's a massive pain in the arse. Yes, it goes down like a lead balloon with colleagues. But the single parent/mother does not have a choice.

Similarly, lots of men 'have' to work long hours so can't do school/nursery drop off/pick up. But a single parent in their shoes simply has to leave work on time.

I do pay a tutor for one hour a week - but that is in order to set a timetable for the work DD and I do together, and which would be very difficult to outsource effectively. And how do you outsource the casual-but-vital conversation that DSS1 and I have when he drops back home in the middle of the day (knowing that I am here) which helps him deal with his teenage negotiation of the world?

In order that I might be able to 'go back to work' my DH has taken a new job that is highly flexible and home based for the most part. He will be the one having the casual-but-vital chats with the DC at those times of the day when it is very useful for a parent to be around.

So even though I have a 'choice' that seems easy to make, I am struggling to make a decision as there just is not enough information out there about what is best for DC at this stage of their lives (i.e. after nursery/preschool).

Unless someone can point me towards some -?