Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boys are better at physics then girls ...

81 replies

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 11/05/2011 13:31

according to dd1s science teacher.

I was at her parents evening last night and we were discussing why in some modules dd1 does brilliantly and in others she does adequately. It just so happened that in the module she scored most highly was a biology one and from that he said ''this might sound a little bit sexist but girls are better at biology, and boys do better at the physics side of things''.

No you arsehole, that was a lot sexist - I didn't say that but I thought it but I did point out to him that there is a lot of cultural conditioning which pushes girls towards biology while trying to dissuade them from doing anything mathematical and physics related. He then quickly changed the subject.

I'm really tempted to speak to the head about this, would that be an over-reaction?

OP posts:
WorkingItOutAsIGo · 12/05/2011 04:04

I have a mother and two sisters with A level physics. Sexist self perpetuating rot. Call him on it.

lazydog · 12/05/2011 04:19

"Geography and maths are her two best subjects and they're ones you supposedly need a penis in order to do well in."

PMSL - I did geography, maths and physics A-levels (+ general studies) and then went on to do a degree in electronics... Wonder what that sexist tosser would think of that? Grin

SardineQueen · 12/05/2011 08:27

Nice to have a big strong man on the thread lazydog Smile

Grin
SybilBeddows · 12/05/2011 09:33

yes Igggi, teacher really does need to read Cordelia Fine, doesn't he?!

I think OP should buy a copy for the staff room.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 12/05/2011 09:44

Heh, tempting, very tempting Sybil.

Still waiting for the head to phone me back. I can't believe how nervous I am.

I've got my bullet points prepared, how do they sound?

  • At the recent parents evening Mr D and I were discussing reasons why my daughter performed less well in certain modules then in others
-Mr D suggested that this was because girls are better at biology whereas boys are better at physical science -he prefaced this statement with the words ''this might sound a little bit sexist'' which indicates to me that he was aware his views are rather sexist.

-I am unhappy with this because he said this in front of my daughter and there have been studies which show that when girls are confronted with negative stereotypes it can affect their performance in a given subject
-I am concerned that if he holds this attitude then he may not be treating girls and boys equally in the classroom. For example, if he is teaching a physical science module he may give female students less support if they struggle as he has already pre-judged them as less able in this particular topic.

OP posts:
SybilBeddows · 12/05/2011 09:51

they look spot on SmellsLike.

don't be nervous, see it as the beginning of a dialogue in which you will improve the attitudes of this teacher and any others in the school who are not yet Feministically Correct.
If he asks you what you mean about the studies you could say casually 'Oh, I'll drop off a copy of Delusions of Gender for you - it's a fascinating book, you'll really enjoy it!' Grin

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 12/05/2011 10:18

Well, that went well. I didn't speak to the head because again he's out all day, honestly, what does this guy do? I spoke to a deputy head who just so happens to be a physics teacher.

She was really supportive and understood my concerns, apologised on behalf of the teacher and said she would speak to him and make sure that this teacher was aware that it is the policy of the school to encourage girls in the fields of maths and physics. They are going to chat to my daughter as well and reinforce positive messages about girls in physics.

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 12/05/2011 10:29

Ah that's great STLS :)

Have just been googling for studies and found this which may be interesting Negative Stereotypes Affect Learning - it talks about maths specifically.

This is also useful, showing how negative gender stereotypes affect women's performance.

Fennel · 12/05/2011 10:32

That's what the science teachers used to tell us, back in the 80s. It's depressing they still say that. Good on you for complaining.

Hasn't girls' performance overtaken boys at A level Physics as well as at GCSE Physics now? I thought I read about that a year or two ago.

SardineQueen · 12/05/2011 10:34

I didn't realise from your OP that the teacher had said this in front of your daughter. I thought it was just to you. I really am gobsmacked, and think you did totally the right thing. As does the deputy head by the sound of things, so really really well done. I'm so pleased that they are going to address this properly Smile

Miggsie · 12/05/2011 10:37

My physics teacher at school was outrageously sexist. The trouble was the two pupils who were best at physics in my year were girls...I don't think he ever got over that one.

ImeldaM · 12/05/2011 10:44

Miggsie, were you at school with me? Grin Our physics and chemistry teachers were exactly same and my friend & I (both female) were best at physics, maths & chemistry in a roomful of boys Grin

Miggsie · 12/05/2011 10:52

Well, I do know our school encouraged boys to do the "pure" sciences stuff at Imperial College whereas the girls weren't told about that in our career "advice". Although both the physics top girls became doctors and I became an electronics engineer, so yah boo sucks to sexist teachers I say!!!!

And interestly us 3 physics girls were a bit off centre and weird with one very studious girl and all the boys were classic introverted geek types. Also interestingly the girls did well at all subjects including arts whereas the physics boys were only really good at science and maths and struggled on the arts side.
Actually, I am doing a certain boy a disservice, he was good at everything except sports, but all his mates were pure science bods.

DD is fab at maths and also pretty good at chess. Apparently one little boy told his mum last term that DD was "even good at football". I'm hoping DD will shatter all sexist stereotypes at her new school...

Oh, and back to the OP, yes, I would have complained about what the teacher said...what, instead of "girls" and "boys" he had said "Jews" and "Blacks" or any other ethnic group?????! Whoops, I don't think so!!!!!

Henry Ford said "if you tell yourself you can't do something, you will be correct. If you tell yourself you can do something, you will also be correct." I always keep that in mind when I'm faced with something tricky at work.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 12/05/2011 10:53

Our physics teacher only spoke to the front row of the class, which was full of boys. I don't think he ever ventured to raise his voice to include the rest of the class. The back rows were full of girls and we spent all our time organising the weekend (Friday double lesson) and talking about boys and politics.

Physics is really no harder than any other science class. I don't find my breasts start poking me in the eye when I read a formula or anything.

Himalaya · 12/05/2011 11:00

The thing is you don't even need to believe the whole gender is a social construct thing to see that this is bad teaching and bad science.

The teacher may well believe that there is accross the population some marginally greater frequency of the abilities, aptitude and interest needed for high level physics amongst boys than amongst girls. He may be right and he may be wrong. But it isn't necessarily the best argument to have with him.

Even if his observation that "girls are better at biology, and boys do better at the physics side of things'' is not 100% down to cultural conditioning, he shouldn't use that in any way to guide his teaching or assessment of individual pupils (and if he does it is likely to be a self-fulfilling prophesy).

I may seem like splitting hairs, or ceding ground....But if you go in there with an argument that starts with 'there is absolutely no chance of any difference between the distribution of innate abilities in physics amongst girls and boys', the teacher/head may silently agree to differ with you and try to palm you off with a mealy mouthed apology.

Where as if you go in there with the argument that each child should be judged against their own potential, previous performance, performance in related subjects like maths etc...not by a broad stereotype - then you are keeping the discussion on the principle that really matters here.

My advice would be to think about what you want before you go in, on a practical level, otherwise they will just give you an apology without looking to change anything.

If you just go in and say you are angry/upset, the head will see the problem as you being angry and try to palm you off with something to calm you down (which would solve the problem as s/he sees it). But if you go in there saying 'I think this may be a sign of a deeper problem in the school which may be holding back some of the pupils, here is how I think we could investigate it, and what could be done to address it' then you are more likely to get somewhere.

Ask what their policies and programs are for teaching and encouraging girls in STEM subjects, and whether these have been 'benchmarked' (...as they say ..) against best practice in other schools.

One thing to suggest might be to set up a task force of teachers, parents and students to look at look at this issue - e.g. find out what other schools do, what is good practice, do a survey of teachers and pupils to find out about attitudes, look at the (anonomised) data that the school collect to try to see where the problems are e.g. if you look at the girls and boys of similar maths ability are they getting the same or different results in physics. How does this compare to other schools in the area? Schools collect so much data now and should be able to do this.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 12/05/2011 11:48

Those would be very good things to ask Himalaya and I wish you'd posted this just a bit earlier then you did. I've already spoken to the school you see.

I wasn't angry, I didn't make it personal. I kept it quite factual, this is what the teacher said, these are the concerns I have. The school does have a policy in place to encourage girls in to perusing maths and science, the deputy head told me this herself - I didn't ask exactly what it was.

What I think I'll do next is to follow my phone call with a letter thanking the deputy head, and requesting the information you suggested I gather.

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 12/05/2011 11:52

Good idea SLTS and I was going to suggest writing a follow up letter as well. I would write to the Head referring to your conversation with the deputy head.

jenny60 · 12/05/2011 11:57

Good for you for complaining. The ratio of female to male undergraduates in physics at university is really dreadful, certainly the worst of all the subjects in my university. Not hard to see some reasons for this. It's amazing how, even among intelligent, thoughtful people, this biological difference stuff is now accepted as 'fact'. Very depressing. It's also amazing how inverted sexism can become in schools. A primary school teacher friend of mine told me how she thought it was sexist that her class was always focussing on 'boys' topics' (i.e. transport, dinosaurs, pirates etc...) and wasn't this unfair on the girls who 'just aren't programmed to like this kind of stuff' Shock

hogsback · 12/05/2011 12:11

Completely unprofessional and I'm saddened to hear such attitudes still persist.

I did Physics, Chemistry, Maths, Further Maths at A-level in a school that only took girls in the 6th form and luckily got plenty of support from teachers apart from a bit of awkwardness from male teachers used to teaching boys.

This was back in the 80s and female hard scientists were generally seen as absolute freaks and I'm afraid I fell right into the 3G (gay/geek/goth) stereotype - I fitted straight in when I finally got to Imperial :)

Browncoat · 12/05/2011 12:21

hmmm, my primary degree is in maths and physics .. and my doctorate is in Applied Mathematics ... and I'm a girl :) ... in fact most of the class in maths and phyics in college were female! and the top 5 in the class in maths were female, in physics there was one bloke!

old sterotypes die hard and are total nonsense....

Browncoat · 12/05/2011 12:25

ps ... berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2008/07/24_math.shtml

by the way, it sounds like he said it like a throw away comment and not sure I'd make anything formal out of it ... but I would certainly challenge his view again and point out that he is outdated in his assumption

catinthehat2 · 12/05/2011 12:34

It's 2011

I cannot believe this thread exists

Sad
StewieGriffinsMom · 12/05/2011 15:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 12/05/2011 16:25

'if you go in there with the argument that each child should be judged against their own potential, previous performance, performance in related subjects like maths etc...not by a broad stereotype - then you are keeping the discussion on the principle that really matters here.' -- I agree Himalaya.

If you have a bright girl (which can be easily proven) the only possible reason to be underperforming in Physics is bad teaching and a teacher with a bad attitude.

It's not too late to press Himalaya's proposals and do a little digging to see if the school is actually taking their encouragement of girls seriously or if it's a matter of paying lip service to an ideal in order to bamboozle parents. You could start a letter with "I'm very relieved to know the school takes girls' achievement in Maths and Science seriously and I wish to explore further with you the specific measures that are in place to ensure that girls participate and achieve according to their potential in those subjects"

Himalaya · 12/05/2011 17:59

SLTS - sorry for the late advice. Was trying to work out what to say without causing a bunfight.

Sounds like you had a good conversation (and well done for taking it on)

I think Maths anxiety's follow up letter approach sounds good, positive, not letting it go, with constructive suggestions.

Ask to see the policy and maybe suggest the process as a review of how it is being implemented/whether it should be revised etc...

IME school leadership teams are just so busy they try as a first response to try to put a lid on criticism, but if you have the time and tenacity to offer them your help (without giving the impression you are telling them how to do their job...) they are more open to constructive criticism and problem solving

if you want to make sure it's on the agenda cc your letter to the chair of governors...