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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Sex and the City and feminism

53 replies

Bumperlicioso · 07/05/2011 19:54

Ok, I will admit that despite it's flaws I love SATC. It was a background to my time at university and a bonding thing between me and my girlfriends.

But I don't deny it fails in the feminism stakes a lot of the time. It's very of the 'choice-feminism' school of thought. The women are all supposedly empowered by sleeping with lots of men, being slaves to fashion and consumerism, and are defined by their sexual archetype.

However, they women get their strength from their friendship which tends to come first before men, they are all professionally sucessful (and mysteriously wealthy!) and it does deal with misogyny and double standards, the idea that men can be promiscuous but not women, the looks Miranda faces when she buys a house on her own.

What do you all think?

OP posts:
dittany · 08/05/2011 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StealthPolarBear · 08/05/2011 14:27

Wasn't keen that it ended with them all apart rather than together

TheRtHonCountessOfBapula · 08/05/2011 14:33

Sort of, Stealth, but it was a second marriage, they were adopting etc ... hers was the most conventional setup but she'd also endured divorce and infertility, so it hadn't been an easy ride up to that point.

I quite liked the way she gives Carrie the ring. It felt like their friendship was symbolised by the ring in the way romantic love usually is - the ring represents a commitment and a longevity to their friendship which supersedes their relationships with their respective male 'providers' (Trey and Big).

GollyHolightly · 08/05/2011 14:33

This is a fascinating discussion, thank you! Grin

Apropos of nothing in particular, I went on a SaTC coach tour when in NY (dead naff, I know Wink ) which was lead by a 'resting' actor. It was really very funny, and when the tour guide asked questions about the programme, the men on the bus masquerading as hen-pecked into going on it, were the first ones to answer Grin

It was a great way to see the city!

Original poster
Bumperlicioso · 08/05/2011 16:08

I think Miranda was the most feminist one, in one episode she got pissed off with them all for only ever talking about men. I guess as well, the four main characters were all early 30s-40s which is another good thing. And shite as the films are they must all be knocking on 45-50 by SATC2.

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Original poster
Bumperlicioso · 08/05/2011 16:24

Count that book does sound interesting.

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BranchingOut · 08/05/2011 16:43

Remember that the very first episode begins by raising the question of 'Why can't women have sex like men?' eg. freely and without emotional angst. Then Carrie begins by sleeping casually with someone with whom she had a history of him being detached/her being emotional and then walking away happily afterwards. The series begins from quite a feminist angle, even if it doesn't always stay there...

However, the six series do cover so many issues touching on women's rights, relationships, equality etc. For example:

Equality in the workplace - Sammantha being turned down for work by Richard.

Managing baby and work - Miranda

Equal behaviour in relationships - Big finally agreeing to stay over at Carrie's place, Big's treatment of Carrie generally.

Shared parenting - Miranda and Steve

Power struggles between women - Charlotte and Bunny McDougall (boy, what an opponent!)

Women, men and money - Charlotte and her marriage pre-nup, Carrie and the deposit, Miranda and Steve in his barman days.

DilysPrice · 08/05/2011 16:51

Don't forget the ongoing "it's OK to be single even if society treats you like crap because of it" thing (too many examples to mention)

HarrietJones · 12/07/2011 17:11

Although this means I have to admit I have watched the film, I did like that Samantha ended up single. It seemed more complete that way.

rainbowtoenails · 13/07/2011 09:46

I think that its failure to ever mention or include rape or domestic violence was unrealistic. Surely one of them would have had such !n experience in all those years? But they (the producers) just brush it under the carpet and pretend it it doesnt happen, just like the majority of society.

LadyClariceCannockMonty · 13/07/2011 10:11

Overall I liked the series and agree with what posters here are highlighting as its positive points. My main objection to it, TBH, is that it was coy and unrealistic about sex. They all had their bras on whenever we saw them in bed 'the morning after' Hmm. And in one episode the camera was on Carrie's face as she orgasmed and it was the cutest, tidiest, tiniest, most unrealistic come-face EVER. Not that I particularly want to see realistic ones on screen either , but either do it properly or don't bother, surely?

Bue · 13/07/2011 16:10

The bra-during-sex-thing annoys me to no end!

LadyClariceCannockMonty · 13/07/2011 16:12

So relieved it isn't just me! Actually DP and I both used to shout at the telly about it. He probably got more wound up about it than I did.

David34 · 13/07/2011 16:28

I don't see what is feminist about a bunch of middle-aged women squealing like little girls about getting an all-expenses paid trip to Qatar.

LadyClariceCannockMonty · 13/07/2011 16:34

I think they went to Abu Dhabi. And if my mates and I landed a free trip I think we'd squeal a bit too. But yes, that film was appalling and not representative of the quality of the series at all, which is a pity if it means that some people think SATC was all like that. I didn't see the first film so I don't know when the rot set in.

David34 · 13/07/2011 16:36

I thought the series was decent enough to start with. I do not remember it being promoted as "the ultimate girls TV show" or whatever it is supposed to be now, when it was first shown in Britain in the late 1990s.

I always had a problem with them trying to make out that Sarah Jessica Parker was stunningly attractive, IMO she is by far the least attractive of the 4.

southeasthamster · 13/07/2011 16:38

i keep watching the repeats atm - the best part for me is that it is hilariously lol funny!

(nice comment david Hmm)

i tend not to over analyse tv shows that much myself though

GollyHolightly · 13/07/2011 16:40

Didn't Carrie experience a bit of DV lite with Petrovski in the hotel suite in paris?

LaurieFairyCake · 13/07/2011 16:48

I love both SATC and Friends - it is easier to take episodes individually and see if they are particularly sexist or homophobic than look at it overall as the writing changed so much depending on who's view point - character (or sometimes writer) was writing for.

The obsession with men and the pandering to their needs is obviously a problem but if you take that out there is some serious comedy and some serious friendships. In fact the friendships between the women in SATC (and less so Friends) is always the bit that gave me most 'lump in the throat moments'.

At some point in the last 20 years friendships became very important due to the disintegration of families and a more mobile workforce and those series really tapped into the zeitgeist.

I've always been more of a socialist feminist though as I believe liberation is only probable if the economic liberation of the people happens. So the focus on materialism in both series is uncomfortable for me.

HighBrows · 13/07/2011 20:52

Hi all. (I'm horribly new so just going to jump in).
I still can't decide whether I like SATC or not. Honestly I'm watching it nigh on 14 years and my Jury is still out.
There are elements to the show that are very much 'sisters are doing it for themselves' however in the end they all, bar Samantha, ended up with a 'someone'. I think for the show to have been true to itself Carrie should have ended up alone and been damn happy with lot.
I've found a link for the book Reading Sex and the City so here it is:

iaminvestor.com/book/Reading.Sex.and.the.City.pdf

I'm going to have a read of it over the next few days and I'll be back.

falasportugues · 14/07/2011 23:51

Just watching v early episode. The girls seem VERY competitive to me, towards men ( their relationships are often power struggles). They think they get one over a guy in the game of luuuurve and have it chucked back in their face... like Carrie shags like a man, only for the man to then go and say yayyy, you finally understood what kind of relationship I am looking for! Is Carrie happy? No, she wants him to be unstuck by her changed attitude. and he's not.

Charlotte fends off a shag on the first date, for the guy to jump in the taxi with her, get back to the party and pick up Samantha instead... "I respect how you feel but i've got to have sex tonight." tosser. Is he just having a wank in someone's bits?

I loved watching SATC, esp when younger, but laughed at them rather more than I'd like to have.I don't know where this fits into feminism, but I would prefer to see more cooperative relationships portrayed.

TillyIpswitch · 15/07/2011 03:50

One of the most common criticisms levelled at the show is that no-one ends up single (bar Samantha by the end of the first movie). And actually HighBrow's comment - 'Carrie should have ended up alone and been damn happy' - does make me think....

Often times this accusation comes either from people in long-term relationships, or single people looking for relationships.

Obviously 'getting a man' is a bit of a sad life ambition - I don't deny that - but humans are social creatures and we get a lot of fulfilment out of a loving, sexual relationship.

Would any of the people who say she (or any of them) should have ended up alone want to end up alone, forever, themselves? I mean, is it anti-feminist to want to grow old with someone you love and like, and to have that companionship?

I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, since I'm very open to hearing a good argument against this! And I realise my thoughts aren't very well formed. Obviously any story line where the aim is to get the protagonist a man and live happily ever after is deeply depressing, but likewise I feel ending up single for the sake of it is not a true reflection of how we, as humans, behave.

God, this is a bit of a ramble, and probably doesn't make much sense! Does anyone understand what I am getting at?

BitOfFun · 15/07/2011 04:03

I suppose that the logical conclusion should have been that their friendships would have sustained them forever, and not just have been a stop-gap.

TillyIpswitch · 15/07/2011 04:10

Which may have worked if they'd all been single and hadn't had to prioritise other relationships/raising children, etc. And could have dedicated some serious companionship to each other. Being alone can (not necessarily will) be lonely; especially in old age.

But then again, it wouldn't have been in any way a true reflection of real life. I know of no group of friends who have relied solely on each other to the exclusion of a sexual partner.

Sexual relationships are a fairly fundamental part of being a human being. Otherwise, applications for the priesthood wouldn't be dropping off at such a rate of knots. Grin

VictorGollancz · 16/07/2011 12:17

I like the episode where Carrie gets the job at Vogue. She runs away from the 'frightening' female editor (can't remember the name of the actress who plays her but she is fab) who critiques her work, but by the end it turns out that actually, 'scary' women are actually very good for you.