Do radical feminists believe in marriage for love?

[msrisotto]

I have the impression that 'they' don't. Am I right?
I know the history of marriage = bad for women, but I suppose a liberal part of me (I have radical beliefs too so am open for debate), and the fact that I am getting married soon, can easily reconcile marriage with equality in the here and now.

HI mrsrisotto, I thought of a long meandering reply to your post, about how marriage is the main pillar of the patriarchy, but then I deleted it and decided to write DON'T DO IT instead

I personally believe that cognitive dissonance (on the part of the woman) is what keeps most marriages going.

Perhaps your marriage is going to be the exception.

I would say two things: read Wifework or Sexual Politics before you marry, and then keep an open mind.

I guess it depends if you're marrying a feminist or not (whether they're male or female)?

I'm married, but was "converted" to feminism in the process. I definitely agree that reading Wifework is a good precaution, as is being extremely pragmatic and explicitly discussing your expectations of everything from daily life household issues, to attitudes to money and debt, to childcare and big future plans, and what would happen were the marriage to end.

I don't personally feel that there's anything fundamentally incompatible about my holding feminist views and being in a partnership or family, but I know many people who disagree and i can understand their worry. Sakura is right that marriage has been and will for a long time remain a major symbol of patriarchal power and it would be unwise to go into it without considering the impact that will have on your life and the messages it send out to other women/men.

I would like to say I have radical tendancies (I still have a long way to go). But I am married and it is for love although I did become a feminist after marriage. I do think it makes a difference that DH is a feminist too and actively supports and agrees with my activism/ child-raising ideas/ views etc.

I am a feminist as is my male partner.
I would consider marriage, on very specific terms.

From a political point of view, is there not an argument for feminists re-appropriating marriage (like the reclaiming of the 'N' word by black people)? As I see it, either we can aim to overthrow marriage and do away with it entirely on the basis that it's a patriarchal structure, or we can remodel it so that it fits our requirements and comes to represent something else. I take hope from how the gay community have reauthored the union with civil partnerships (when they also could have rejected marriage for being an essentially homophobic institution).

"Do radical feminists believe in marriage for love?"
Only if it's to another radical feminist.....

I think not marrying when you move in with a partner / have children is the opposite of feminism. You are giving away loads of legal protection and not recognising the father's equal obligations towards your children. I consider myself a feminist and married for love and up until the point when we had children we both worked, travelled and socialised independently and shared household stuff equally. The DCs did lead to a renegotiation of tasks but we still take pains to divide things fairly, parent jointly and stay as 2 separate people. Interesting to note that while I spend my time defending my independence in the outside world my friends with partners rather than husbands are always emphasising their coupledom.

My marriages were oppressive but that was due to my shitty coice of partners, not the institution itself! Marriage in the UK provides equality between the partners by law; it's far more woman-friendly than cohabitation, especially if you have children. The rest is all expectations, traditions and bullshit.

I think most of us end up compromising for the sake of an easy life. I was one of the multitude of wives whith two surnames: everybody except my husband's friends & family, a few old dears and Natwest( [grr] ) honoured my wish to keep my own name. It's important to discuss your expectations in detail before you wed, and to take care over the vows you will exchange, imo.

Oh, and congratulations to you both :)

Howabout, what extra obligations towards their children, does marriage give a man?

oh my god I have so much to learn....marital rape only became illegal in 1991?!!!

I was a latent feminist before marriage (was brought up to believe in both sexes being equal but was very naive about the reality) and am gradually learn more as I know become a feminist and realising how important it is for not just me to leanr but also DH - we married young, were swept away in the romance, there are things I did that I probably wouldn't choose to do now (5years on) but hopefully we're growing together

Important point there, HB. The law has kind of ducked out of parental responsibilities by framing everything as reflecting the rights of the child. I remember being overjoyed at that when it happened (there were far too many tug-of-war children) but it seems overdue for another rethink.

Yes it frames everything as being from the POV of the rights of the child, but those rights are a joke.

Children don't have the right to be financially supported (3/5 of non-resident parents don't pay a penny of maintenance and the ones who do, pay a derisory amount in th main) and they don't have the right to contact with their parents (if the non-resident parent doesn't want contact with them, there is no mechanism to enforce it.) So children's rights vis a vis NRP's are non-existent in reality. It's all on paper.

And they're about to bring in grandparent's right to contact, but I bet you a child who wants contact with a grandparent who doesn't want contact with them, won't have that right.

All the rights children have on paper, are in fact an undermining of resident parent's rights, not children's rights at all.

Do you just mean formal marriage or are you including cohabitation?

You see I don't really see the point of saying formal marriage is bad while thinking long-term cohabitation as being OK, because when it comes to everyday life, I think they are the same thing.
But, of course, cohabitation often leaves a sahm with no leg to stand on in event of split.
So, frankly, if a woman is going to go down the sahm route, she is better off married.

Although I still maintain that women are happier either being single or having a manfriend that they do not live with.

I don't think marriage is about love, marriage is basically a legal contract which can save you a lot of bother getting all the relevant documents drawn up separately. I think it makes a lot of sense for some couples, e.g. those where one partner is going to be a SAHP, but don't see the point of doing it just for 'love' if you don't need the particular legal rights/obligations it gives you.

I'm a feminist who's getting married next year. We will BOTH be reading Wifework beforehand We've been together for 5 years already and I can't see how just continuing to live together is preferable to marriage. Because we want a family, I think marriage is indeed far preferable.

Wamster is probably onto something in that I suspect many women probably are happier in a non-live-in relationship (not so sure that they are necessarily happier single, though no doubt some would be). Yet I'm still happy to be getting married. Hope springs eternal, I suppose.

WTF, are you serious HB? THey're bringing in fucking grandparents rights???

So now we have yet another bunch of people able to override the mother, and ride roughshod over how she sees fit to raise her children, and yet who have zero responsibility, financially or emotionally, towards the child??

If a mother doesn't want someone to spend time with her kids, will there ever come a day where her opinion will be respected?!?!

After all, if something goes wrong with the kids nobody is going to blame the father or granparents. Nope, blame falls directly in the lap of the mother.

Well.. if they want to blame mothers for everything anyway, they should damn well give us the rights to excercise power over who gets to see our children.

All rights and no responsibilities is what mothers get for their pains: for their labour pains, and the pain of losing out on promotions and earnings.

Shit...

EH?

No rights and all responsibility

is what I meant

...agree with all the others who say both of you read wife work and agree on all levels what your partnership will be like...including maternity leave etc.

One quick point, unless I am missing something obvious...marriage only provides legal protection if one of you is doing the SAHP route...otherwise not so much.

I haven't followed it too closely (too busy banging my head against the wall) but here's a report.

God, I think i'd be embarassed to get him to read wifework - he does the washing and picking up after me after all. No, I'm not concerned about my relationship, we have discussed those things everyone has suggested and we are a very equal partnership with similar values. I was just wondering, if it excluded me from radical feminism and it does seem to. Marriage may be a historically patriarchal institution, and for many it still may be, but for me in my situation, it just isn't.