First baby for a feminist, expecting a boy: where do I start??

[dizzy77]

So pleased to find this space on MN! Presumably I am not the first expectant feminist mum to ask this, but I've had little experience of small boys as I grew up with sisters and went to girls schools.

Grappling to articulate this properly, but would love some kind of primer in bringing up a boy to respect women and avoid reinforcing stereotypes so far as I can... and this talk topic feels like the right place to ask for what I have in mind. Any advice and/or recommended reading?

I agree that mat leave can easily start pushing women into gender stereotyped roles within the home.
IMO it is important that (excluding bf) you make sure that there is nothing that your dp doesn't ever do. It is really common to hear things like "my Dh wouldn't have a clue how to put Ds in his car seat" etc. It is so easy to slip into the primary caregiver role while on mat leave in a way that makes it hard to ever reinstate equality. My boys are at school and I still find my self assuming that things are my job. On some cases this makes sense (Dh is shit at laudry) but in other cases I think it just a hangover idea that I have primary responsibility for the boys.

Paternity leave is ridiculously short, but having the father around full time for the first couple of weeks can make a huge difference. Both parents learn together how to handle things and feel confident in their partner's ability to look after the baby.

There's awfully little in this thread about the actions of the boy's father! But where else is a young boy going to get an example of male behaviour from? It's hard to imagine the lad growing up as a young male feminist if his father's the total opposite. See how much agreement you can get before the birth, and keep it up.

Thanks SGM, will look up the book club threads and give both PB, BB and DoG a try.

Love the practical tips about making sure DH is capable and taking part, and particularly the "go ahead" for the toy kitchen! Will be hopeful DS will be "helping" US BOTH in the kitchen from an early age...

Sometimes you have to stop and ask yourself 'would I do the same if DS was a DD?', so if you find yourself letting him play in a violent way, or excusing him from household chores, or trying to dissuade him from dancing or playing fairies, because he is a boy, then it's time to take action.

The main problems I've found are stupid comments from family eg 'you're being such a girl' if he's whining. I won't tolerate the word 'girl' being used as an insult.

I'm finding with DS that I just go with the flow. Luckily, DH is fabulous and we agree with one another that we shouldn't pressure him into liking only "boys' things."
In fact, DH can't wait to buy him a little toy kitchen for his 2nd birthday. I totally don't get the "toy kitchens are for girls" thing. DH is a chef, and is in a kitchen 6 days a week. He sure as hell does more cooking than me.

I agree that the hardest thing to counter is friends and family. As I said on another thread, DF keeps saying he is pleased that DS likes cars because he is a proper little boy.
Apparently his like of his buggy and dolly are my influence, said as if I foist these toys on DS to make a point. I don't have the money to piss it all up the wall on toys I know DS won't play with. I noticed he liked the buggy at playgroup, so bought him one.

Congratulations! Buy pink stuff and boy dolls like Noddy.

What Selks said also what Sarkylady said.

I think there is a tendency to overestimate the influence we have as parents over our children's personalities. Once he is born you will grow to meet him and find out what he is like as an individual.

Don't get too irate with the well-meaning nonsense grandparents and other wellwishers come out with.

I have two DSs. One loved his toy kitchen, the other had no interest. One loved cars and diggers and trains as a toddler (the one with the
kitchen) the other loved drawing and making. One liked to be
outdoors, the other likes to cuddle up at home. One is a daredevil, the
other is more cautious. Neither is more 'boy' than the other.

On the otherhand, as soon as your DS is born you will become 'mum' and 'dad' and that is a minefield of gender stereotypes as small differences in who does what in the early years can end up with one partner specialising in childcare and housework.

Congrats and enjoy!

Oops, I've been crazed with work and not come back to this thread - Is "Raising Cain" that bad, SGM? oh heck - I haven't got past the first page but I was recommended it by someone who I thought had her head screwed on pretty well. I'm going to have to read further, I think. I also want to read Pink Brain, Blue Brain and I still haven't read Delusions of Gender but now the semester is finally wrapping up there's hope that I'll get the time (once I've marked all the blardy exams!)
So - yes! There will be a "Feminist Parenting of Boys: The Bookclub" thread starting in 3, 2, 1...

TieTetua I was going to say the same. DS is 2.5 and I'm 11wks pregnant with #2 - the older DS gets the mroe I realise his father is slipping into stereotypical make roles and views that he didn't seem to have before I became a domestic slave goddess. I'm less training DS to ignore the gender inequalities and focusing on having these kind of discussions with DH, because much as he is brilliant with his son (perfectly capable of doing everything it takes to look after him and does his fair share of it too) when it comes to housework and misogynistic 'banter' (my brother is in the army, it's amazing how much HE has changed since the brainwashing started there) I do pull him up on it because HE is the one who needs to set a good example.

There's no point in me bringing up DS to think men and women are both capable of taking out the bins and doing the washing up if the behaviuour from his closest male relative goes against that.

This makes DH sound very anti-feminist, he's not (has been amazing hearing him tell my brother to take the softcore porn off his barrack walls because of the attitudes it encourages towards women) but I think language and behaviour we didn't really think about before is becoming more important because we are setting an example to a growing human being.

Congrats btw OP (sorry!!)

also - my DS doesn't go to nursery and STILL prefers cars and trucks and dinosaurs.....but does love to push his he man around in his pink glittery baby buggy

Congratualtions.
Second what everyone else has said about you and your DP modelling behaviour and allowing him to develop his personality as an individual rather than shoehorning him into typical boy expected behaviour.

However trust me (3 boys 7,5 and 2) that the hard work begins when he goes to school. That is when you really need to be alert in terms of bringing him up to believe the sexes are equal.

It would appear that once they get to school a lot of teachers are quite happy to allow gender stereotypes to be reinforced. Then they come home and tell you that they can't behave because they're a boy oh, and by the way, only girls can possibly be good. Grrr.

Don't worry though the first 5 years are easy (in this respect at least..)

First of all congratulations.

You ask about a 'Primer'. I think the Primer has to be you. What you feel and think - not some book or web page.

We have two DSs and although neither me nor DW would say we are feminists we have very strong feelings about equality issues abd respect for others.

Our DSs are now age 9 and 11 and we have found that they sometmes bring home attitudes about. for example, the roles that girls and boys should play. When we hear them say something that goes against what we think and feel we challenge it and discuss it.

From my point of view, I also try to be a good example to DSs. i don't know if you live with a male parter but boys generally look up to and want to be like men. If you have a man around who can be a good role model, treats you with respect. feels the same as you on key issues and backs you up that will be a big help.

If your son respects you then he will go on to respect other women.

I agree re the toy kitchen/wendy house thing. Anywhere I go with toys, all the boys are crammed round the toy kitchen.

I have two DSs. We got rid of out TV and that has cut out a lot of the sexist crap which was infiltrating our lives. (DS1 was picking up such shite as 'pink is a girl's colour etc).

On a separate note, it is worth knowing about how many boys learn and develop in the educational sense. I do think (as a feminist and teacher) that the state education system is quite pro-female and you may end up becoming a champion of wee boys (I know I have, quite unexpectedly). A couple of months ago DS1 who is in reception said to me, 'Mummy, can boys do all the things that girls can?' All the responsible 'jobs' in his class are done by the girls.

Anyway, good luck. Boys are amazing and I would say, paradoxically, more sensitive and in need of tender nurturing than many girls of the same age.

hi there i too have 3 boys and would agree with the previous poster: 0-5 is a doddle, once they start school, it is seriously challenging - largely because other people's kids spout all the crap about "pink is for girls" etc. I am constantly refuting this to my 6y old. I even bought him a nice dark pink shirt which he was happy to wear - until he turned up at an event wearing it and, literally as we walked in the door, one of the cool boys who he admires with witless parents ran past him shouting oooooh pink girlie girl. He was crushed. I don't know what the answer is, and like others say you don't need to worry about it yet (my 3y old would happily wear a tutu). All I do is constantly refute it and say things like "No, some boys are stronger/faster/whatever than some girls but many girls can run faster than many boys " etc etc I think it goes over his head at this age but I have trained him to say "I am a feminist" if anyone mention the pink is for girls thing .

TBH, I think it is actually far harder if you have girls - they are far more pressurised into silly gender stereotypes these days and I know many feminist type women at their wits ends with the girly-pink-makeup obsessiveness that seems to start at about 8!

I'm really appreciating this discussion - thanks for all your input, it's an inspiring group on here! I've started my reading as recommended and I'm fascinated by the concept of neurosexism from both Cordelia Fine and the "Bad Science" demolitions by Lise Eliot. I guess being mindful and not putting up with it either (eg befuzzled) are going to go a way to helping with this. I don't think engaging DH's (male) support will be hard, based on some conversations we've had here. But school! Nursery! DGPs and ILs!! Crikey.

In some ways, it does almost feel easier than trying to deal with all the feminine pink/sparkliness that appears unavoidable for girls these days, plus things like body image etc that I don't personally have a brilliant record on....

I'm also really enjoying all the wisdom here - I feel like forewarned is forearmed, and I'm going to be enjoying the discussion in our Feminist Parenting of Boys bookclub books and just talking about it all. I've heard turdass's point about early school years and suddenly becoming a champion of boys from other mums, including my Dsis who was a key stage 1 teacher... it's going to be an interesting ride, that's for sure!

If you are planning to breastfeed, make bathtime "Dad time" - preferably if he gets into the bath with your DS until he's old enough to go in by himself. It's lovely skin-to-skin oxytocin bonding time (like breastfeeding) and you can either join in by sitting by the bath watching them, being ready with the towel etc (like breastfeeding) OR you can go off and do something else while they have one on one bonding time (like breastfeeding )

I was going to say I'm not sure this is a feminist issue, but I think it is - breastfeeding is so often undermined by people suggesting (often as a first resort) that Dad can give bottles to "feel involved" when actually it's a lot more hassle (especially if you express) and can even interfere with breastfeeding. Leave the mama to do the mama thing (Unless you're going out obviously in which case it's different anyway)

Also - I'm trying to bring up DS (and any future children I might have, girls or boys) to have the idea that household jobs are the responsibility of everyone who lives there, and the share of the workload depends on each person's capability and other time commitments, nothing else. (And that looking after children is a commitment). So I get him involved in all the jobs that he possibly can, I try not to wave him off with a "Go and play, mummy's busy" - yes the jobs take twice as long, but I think it's worth it (and also, if we spend 1 hour collecting up washing, sorting it and putting it in the machine, say that would have taken 30 minutes on my own, I might have spent those other 30 minutes playing with him. This way, I get to spend an hour with him, AND we're doing something constructive. I lose none of my "me time" by letting him help with things.) Obviously sometimes I get narked when I'm trying to tidy up and he's taking it all out and throwing it around because he's 2 and that's what he does sometimes. But most of the time, it seems to work for now. He doesn't see tidying up, or cleaning, or cooking, as mummy's job, just as a task that needs to be done and everyone (well me and him since that's all there is) pitches in to help if they can.

Can I join the 'feminist parenting of boys' book club? I would dearly love recommendations about bringing up boys that don't send my blood pressure sky high with their stereotypical over-generalisations!

I have two boys aged 7 and 9 and I would agree with whoever said that you become quite defensive about the constant negativity towards boys (particularly in relation to school and achievement). I almost feel relieved that so far the gender gap in attainment doesn't seem to hold boys back career wise you do have to put up with people saying things like 'well girls are just better' - I guess 50 years ago it would have been assumed boys were 'just better' but I would hope that we have moved on somewhat from such gross over-generalisations!

i think to come back to your original point, I actually think it is not YOU that will have the most influence on your son in relation to his gender attitudes, but his father. That is where the most powerful modelling will take place - so its really important that his dad can show him a range of potential roles, contributes to the nurturing and domestic work, and respects you!

My DH went part time when I went back to work and looked after the boys a day a week when they were little. So he's always been fully skilled up. I can't claim that he's perfect - I still end up holding onto the organisational threads and planning playdates/homework etc, but I think he's doing a pretty good job of role modelling so far!

'I'm trying to bring up DS (and any future children I might have, girls or boys) to have the idea that household jobs are the responsibility of everyone who lives there, and the share of the workload depends on each person's capability and other time commitments, nothing else. '

That's worked very well for us, DS is now 16 and DD is 20.

Good to hear it Goblin! I must admit I'm living in hope as DS is only 2, so I have no idea if it will continue into the teenage years, but I hope so :)

elliot - yes yes yes! Come over to the Feminist Book Club section and help us decide what to read first!

It's taken me ages to find that book club thread, blackcurrants - I didn't realise there was a whole new section!

I can't find it- can someone direct me? Thanks!