Balancing educating others with being a shouty feminist....

[AnnieLobeseder]

Hi ladies

Well, as happy as I am to have discovered feminism and to be thinking about feminist issues more, I have found that all my posts on Mumsnet now seem to be feminism-based, and I suspect I'm becoming something of a bore to the rest of MN .

What worries me most is turning into one of the feminists who used to put me off identifying more closely with feminism, the shouty ones who tell you you're wrong and ignorant if you don't believe what they do.

And it's very hard, when you see something so clearly as sexist and oppressive while other women don't, not to shout at them and ask why they can't bloody well see what's before their eyes!!

Like the rash of threads about Mrs/Miss/Ms there have been lately. That's a subject I've always felt very strongly about, even before my recent feminist reawakening. I can see why some women blindly follow the social tradition to change their title to Mrs when they get married. But I cannot see how any woman can seriously examine the issue, think hard about what being called Mrs really means for women, and then happily go on being a Mrs anyway. I just can't.

So on those threads, I can feel myself getting little shouty, although I know I won't win anyone over that way.

On the other hand, if I encountered someone who felt very strongly that women should wear trousers and never wear make-up, I'd disagree strongly and say it doesn't make me less of a feminist if I occasionally want to look pretty. But a very militant extreme feminist might disagree - because although I personally am not oppressed enough to feel that a woman's look are so important that I can't go out without my 'face' on, other women are. So all make-up is bad to this fictional other feminist.

Extreme example but I hope you know what I mean.

So if women are saying that they personally are not oppressed and de-valued by being their DH's 'property' by calling themselves Mrs, even though it perpetuates ways to keep women subservient, should I accept that and not be endlessly frustrated with them?

I'm rambling. I hope someone can figure out what I mean.

I think what I'm trying to ask is, am I wrong to get so frustrated by women who happily live with sexist societal norms, because another feminist who has reached a 'higher level of enlightenment' might see me in just the same light?

At what point do you draw the line in trying to educate? Just make your point once and hope it sinks in? Keep debating? Get drawn into an argument about how women are their own worse enemies?

Is it something I'm likely to get better at with experience?

My heartfelt congratulations to anyone who can figure out what I'm trying to say here. It sounded much clearer in my head!

yes the overton window, that's what I was getting at with my "women should never live with men ever"! Sometimes bringing it right over to where you want it can help. Other times people just think you're an unintelligible mad woman.

Oh oh AND: Women are certainly not their own worst enemy. Put the blame where it belongs. It's easier to get annoyed with the women who go along with it but bear in mind that they're living within a patriarchal framework which is not of their creation.

Yes, good point E&M (although it is tempting to forget it when I see women studying close up shots of other women's cellulite and slagging them off for it).

One lady I knew makes a point that her sort of radical feminism involves recognising that we are all women and we are doing whatever it takes to get by. It is important to recognise that and to respect women, and their decisions and actions, for that. Anyhow, this lady managed to be totally feminist and totally not scary and very accepting and helpful.

I think I might have made that point before, but I found it to be a rather revolutionary approach and one I still attempt to aspire to. In fact, I often find it harder to do that than to try and 'educate them'.

And I also meant to say (damn work, interrupting :o) that it's easier to get annoyed with the women who express anti-women sentiments etc, BECAUSE of the patriarchy. Far more acceptable to say "chuh, these women - what hope have we got for men to treat us decently if other women are out to get us?". This has the effect of deferring the day when we actually demand that sexist men sort themselves out. It is far easier after all to address the faults of those on a similar "level" to ourselves rather than dare to criticise the behaviour of men behaving in the same way (or worse).

I hadn't heard of the Overton Window concept, that's interesting.

In my original post, I was talking about ways of dealing with the topic in RL - because I think (and again, I believe someone touched on this upthread) it is different on an internet forum where the combination of anonymity, written-only responses, time-lapses in replies and an expectation of debate changes the dynamic.

I've certainly found it interesting (and rather heartening) to observe the number of posters in this section who have arrived, got into a heated argument with another poster, disappeared to lick wounded feelings, then have later returned and said that they now think differently about the subject - or indeed the world (!)
Which shows that the direct, uncompromising, assertive approach can yield good results in the context of an internet forum, if nothing else.
But as more and more people are using the internet and forums like this to gain info, it's exceedingly important that this is happening IMO.

I think the term 'educate' is very patronising maybe thats one one thing that should change.
I know you mean well, the miss/mrs reminds of my newly divorced mum in her 50's who kept gettting Miss SueSylvester ..post through the door, she keept having fits ' miss i'm 50'

Thanks for the posts everyone (not 'ladies', sorry dittany!)

Sorry I posted and ran, work got crazy and I've only now found time to come back to this.

I've skimmed through the posts and will be back later to read properly. Thanks for taking the time to understand what I was saying though and thinking up serious responses.

what is so bad about ladies out of curiosity?

Marking to read later

Thanks again, all. I've read through everything properly and there are very good points. I guess the take-home message is just to put your case across as rationally as you can, try not to get upset by the stubborn ones who seem determined not to understand you and hope that the message is quietly being absorbed by the less vocal.

And well done to everyone for managing to trudge through my OP and actually make some sense of it!!!