Why should men be feminists?

[David51]

I have been asked to go along to a union meeting to give a talk about why men should be feminists. This has been asked for by female members of the union.

I can think of a few reasons myself but would be grateful for any suggestions.

What kind of arguments have you used to convince male partners or colleagues and were they successful?

I posted on the other version of this thread which seems to have been ignored so I'll copy and paste here.

Something I've read on here before is that patriarchy harms men as well as women - issues like men feeling unable to express emotions, feeling pressure to conform to gender roles e.g. providing as nemo said.

And also what is that quote - about feminism seeing men as more human than popular culture would have us believe ie they are portrayed as apes who blunder around led only by their mighty penises. Not accepting myths about men "needing" sex to justify rape (including marital rape, date rape) or affairs, not accepting that men are emotional neanderthals so clearly they can't be blamed for hurtful behaviour, saying that men are capable so they are capable of housework, etc etc. Feminism isn't against men, it recognises that men are decent human beings most of the time and what it's against are men who treat women like they are worth less, or as skivvies, or sex toys. I haven't worded that fantastically but YKWIM.

But overall just because surely most people want equality for all - you wouldn't say you can only challenge racism if you're black, would you? It's not about the personal benefit to yourself, it's about wanting a fairer world for all. And if people do struggle to see past the selfish angle, you can remind them that their daughters, wives, sisters, mothers, female friends are equal too and should be recognised as such.

Just wondering is your talk going to be to mainly women or to men?

Bertie sorry if I appeared to ignore your previous post - this was due to me stupidly putting up the same topic twice. I will be keeping a note of all the responses in both places. I agree with everything you say but I think the challenge is to try to understand why things that seem obvious to us are not obvious to other people

Saltatrix I don't really know what to expect from the meeting yet, or what's expectd from me

Firstly, one would hope that men would have a sense of unfairness at living in a society which objectifies and discriminates against women on such an insidious scale.

Secondly, one would hope that men would care enough about the women in their lives to want them to have equality of rights and opportunities, to have aspirations beyond being a glamour model or a lap dancer, to want them to be able to walk the streets at night safely, to want them to not feel pressured into feeling that they have to look a certain way which can lead to self-esteem issues/depression.

Thirdly, feminism benefits men because, as others have explained, it removes the gender stereotypes that apply to men and women and the subsequeunt pressure on both sexes to look and act in the way that is expected of their gender.

A small example of this is work clothing. The men in my office wear suits and ties all year round and complain about being hot in the summer. Women can wear suits/dresses/sleeveless tops and have much more freedom to be able to wear what they like.

There's no reason why men shouldn't be able to wear more relaxed clothes in the summer or makeup or have long hair but these things are all associated with the 'feminine'.

In addition, the objectification of women leads men and women to have unrealistic expectations of how women should look and behave (and yes, this does also apply to men but to a lesser extent). Reinforcing women's role as objects is going to affect a man's ability to have healthy, intimate relationships with women who have real breasts and body hair and personalities.

I worry about the younger generations' expectations of how women and men should behave and look. I do think this affects women more but it cannot be good to be a teenage boy who is going out into the world thinking that every woman he has a relationship with should look and act like a porn actress.

Plus everything else that everyone else has typed!

Have you checked out the Antiporn Men website? There might well be something on there.

Ah I was just curious as normally a speech would be tailored for the expected audience. In your case if it's women it would be about men if it's to men it would be to them making it easier to relate and connect to get your point across. Often people switch off if they feel the topic doesn't do anything for them but I expect the people going to your meeting would already be interested so the most difficult part is out of the way. Good luck reeling them in.

I also think many of the world of shit elements of our society are rooted in sexism. The one that makes me beyond angry every day is the excessive adulation of competition and risk-taking as positive work behaviours. I have mentioned on other threads the discomfort I have had at the difference in remuneration and respect between DH's job as a carer for adults with physical and mental disabilities, at which he was really bloody good, and the business he had manufacturing and importing items of what I would term frippery. Until caring is as respected as competing we still have institutionalised (well more than that as it runs through whole cultures) sexism which means men and women feel they need to follow paths in which they are neither suited, passionate about, or happy.

Just read BertieBotts post above and on the other thread and I totally agree about feminists seeing men as full human beings rather than slaves to their sex drive, which is how popular culture rather conveniently paints them.

Certainly, most women I come across through my feminist campaigning believe that men are better than our current meda & culture would have us believe. Most people, especially non-feminists, shrug their shoulders and say, 'boys will be boys', and 'men will be men' to excuse some pretty crap behaviour (strip clubs, prostitution, porn). But feminists believe that men are better than that and we don't buy the myth that men are slaves to testostorone.

A lot of this comes down to the ability of a few to make money out of the masses. It's convenient to sell the idea that stripping is empowering and harmless because that way a handful of people can make a lot of money out of a lot of gullible men and young women. It's convenient to sell the idea that porn is harmless and enjoyable for the women involved because that way a lot of men will part with a lot of money to watch a woman being penetrated in several orifices at the same time (and obviously enjoying herself immensely).

Actually both harm relations between the sexes (see Object's testimonies from ex lap dancers, and the recent Leeds study on lap dancing) but whilst there's money to be made from the sex industry, these myths will abound and men will be conditioned into parting with cash to watch women being exploited and abused.

Jess there was a case a while back where a male jobcentre worker won a case of discrimination after refusing to wear a tie (because they didn't have any such rules for women).

Of course on the same principle city firms should not be demanding that women wear skirts or high heels, but I've heard that some of the scumbags do

Yes, I've heard about those cases. I was trying to think of it in a way that would appeal to an audience of men, along the lines of 'what's in it for me?' (if I was a man!).

For many years, equality has unfortunately meant women acting more like men but that didn't free men from the rigid gender stereotype of masculinity that we hold so dear in this country.

Feminism frees people from these rigid stereotypes so in that way it does benefit men hugely.

There's a quote that I've seen (Pankhurst?) about one half of the population getting free so that they can free the other half. Will look tomorrow.

"We have to free half of the human race, the women, so that they can help to free the other half"

Sorry, I was being flippant earlier.

Great posts here. It's a no brainer, isn't it? Imagine what we could all get done if none of us had to deal with, conform to and work around so much gender stereotyping and expectation? I cannot believe that there is one person in the world where their gender has not had a negative effect on at least one aspect of their life.

We should all be feminists because it makes sense.

I'd lob a few figures in as well.

Most people have no idea that 1 in 4 women get raped or sexually assaulted, only 4% ish of rape allegations are false and there's only a 6% chance of getting a conviction if you bother to report it and most rapes aren't reported.

Pointing out that 1 in 4 women with whom they are personally acquainted, have been raped and of those, probably not one of them has either reported it or had justice for it if she has, is big news for some people. That alone makes it clear why feminism is needed and why men should support it, unless they are rapists.

I still don't know if this would be an audience of men or of women or mixed, but I assume mixed, if it was "asked for by female members of the union". If you want to reach the men, I'd say go very lightly on the idea of "male privilege"; that's for advanced students.

My suggestions are first the issue of justice: here are your fellow union members, and are they ever afraid of you, do they ever feel insulted by you, fundamentally are you on their side, and are they convinced of that? Everyone here is working and trying to get by--do you support everyone the way you want to be supported? Women and men are sharing the world as they're sharing the union, so isn't everyone entitled to equal respect?

And that leads into a question that men could ask themselves: do you like women? Do you act as if that's true, or as if you want to take advantage of them? It's far more common that women are intimidated by men than the other way round--why's that?

I suppose if you want to analyse it, people are in trade unions for the practical purpose of getting a better deal at work, but maybe also for the spiritual(???) purpose of linking up with other people and making the world better. You could present feminism as a continuation of that idea, that it puts people on the same side rather than opposite sides.

And then there's the concept that freedom and respect aren't like money, there's no need to feel that if one person has more, someone else will have less. In fact, the more of those things someone else has, the more you have yourself. Wouldn't it be a fine thing if all union concerns worked that way!

And so forth.

'Pointing out that 1 in 4 women with whom they are personally acquainted, have been raped and of those, probably not one of them has either reported it'

I've used those figures in an argument that 1-4 women in this country will be raped and was challenged to prove it.

The only stats I could find are for american college students.

Is there a link for stats in this country? I found this on rape crisis about assaults.

'It's much more common than people think.
Around 21% of girls and 11% of boys experience some form of child sexual abuse. 23% of women and 3% of men experience sexual assault as an adult. 5% of women and 0.4% of men experience rape. (Cross Government Action Plan on Sexual Violence and Abuse www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/ Sexual-violence-action-plan)'

Another Home Office publication gives a f1gure of 100,000 rapes a year (2000 a week)

Home Office Statistical Bulletin: Crime in England and Wales 2006/07

rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb1107.pdf

Also lots of official stats here:

www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200360002&itemid=1713

The original NPC report is here:

www.philanthropycapital.org.uk/publications/community/violence_against_women/default.aspx

I think more men would consider themselves feminist if they had a better idea of what feminism actually is. There still seems to be the belief that if women are winners then men are automatically the losers.

I often think 'feminism' puts the emphasis too much on women. The more choice and freedom women have, the more choice and freedom men do too.

My DH considers himself a feminist, and is happy to declare himself so in an argument discussion. Of course, it would sound a bit better if he didn't think it was funny to finish the declaration with 'It's a great way to pick up chicks'

LOL at this: "I'd say go very lightly on the idea of "male privilege"; that's for advanced students."

I keep forgetting that.

Actually I've just remembered something one of my university lecturers said last week - she said if she ever has to cover feminism in a seminar or discussion group, the females in the room just 'click' with it straight away - even if they had not previously considered themselves feminists or done much reading about it. But the males in the room always have trouble with it.

With that in mind the "beginners" and "advanced" level stuff does seem suddenly more important! So the things that might be obvious but aren't, e.g. the rape statistics, are more likely to be taken in than talking about the pay gap unless you are specifically going to debunk the myth this is all because women choose to stay at home, or arguments about porn, male privilege, etc.

I wonder as well about the difference between big effects of sexism, which people like to think are rare or apply to other countries and don't affect them or people they know, e.g. domestic violence, eating disorders, trafficking, exploitation, etc etc, and the smaller everyday effects of sexism which are harder to pin down but almost every woman can relate to (considering starting a separate thread on this) - which are going to move people more? And which are going to immediately turn people off? Problem is both have the potential to. If you talk about horrific issues people can't identify with, some will wonder why this is relevant to them. Others will be shocked and take note. If you talk about issues they can recognise, it engages some, but others will think what? Why are you moaning about this tiny insignificant issue?

But then I guess some people won't be interested no matter what you say so best to cover both angles, probably.

I think that the moral argument for feminism (based on giving all human beings equal worth and status in society) is as important to stress as any pragmatic ones. There is an analogy with the anti-racism debate, where I find it disturbing that many people only argue against racism on the basis of the benefits greater tolerance confers rather than stating head-on that racism is morally abhorrent.

That said, my DH often points out how toxic the current patriarchal model can be for men, with men pitted against each other in overt or unspoken competition constantly, with aggression and distrust as default modes of behaviour. That is not innate, as many people assume, it is a learned cultural practice, and if we un-learned it we would surely all be happier.

I also think it is very important to challenge the notion some on the left have, that feminism is a middle-class preoccupation that benefits the affluent, who transfer unwanted female roles (cleaning, childcare) to lower-paid more vulnerable women. There may be a tendency for that to happen, but that is not what feminism is. Equality and equal worth (not to mention equal pay) are vitally important for all women and if achieved, would transform the lives of the poorest even more than the richest.

I would say there is a pretty strong crossover between feminist issues & socialist/ 'left wing' ones. For example the recession is having a disproportionate effect on women, the 'beauty' industry pressures them to spend money they can't afford, and the sex industry thrives on many women's lack of viable alternatives.

More generally, when you start to see things from a feminist POV this may open up a wider critique of capitalism

Great article

Why I Am a Male Feminist