Knickers are an 'important part of women's lives'?

[schroeder]

Link Are they? Are underpants an important part of men's lives? These people are supposed to be feminists, but I think it's so patronising.

dittany, I thought your discussion had moved from the particular of knickers to more fundamental ideas of how 'we' change the world, and that is what I was engaging with, so I stand by my post.

As for 'real attempts at understanding difference' I was referring to feminists with different ideas and ways of working for change really listening and talking to each other with respect and openness, which of course doesn't mean that feminists will always agree (and sometimes we will seriously disagree) but that we can respect honest searching for ways to improve women's lives.

I am now going offline for a couple of days.

No more so than socks or shoes or tables.

How odd.

I think what I'm saying is - yes, this is alright as an art project if that's what a group of women want to do, for fun, they can fill their boots. (And myxd's writing style is redolent of funding applications that make out that something is oh so meaningful and contributing to understanding, as if that - rather than action - were the be all and end all. Sorry myxd I've written things like that myself for work and I recognise it.)

But the thing is - what a WASTE of time and resources to pretend this has any kind of real point to it that will advance the cause of feminism in any way. Women will mainly go "meh", some men will get excited about it. Party over. If you're going to get hold of money or space or time to use for something feminist there are approximately 1,000,000 things that would be more productive/interesting/life-changing than this.

can I just say, I am waving pompoms dripping with the blood of the patriarchy for you, dittany :o

Dittany I love you on this thread. And on the "I am a feminist but..." thread.

No, you have been quite rude and I don't know why, she hasn't been wilfully offending anyone. But hey, if it makes you feel better to tear into good meaning people go for it.

I thought it was more about saying that women come in all different shapes and sizes and that it is fine to be different than other women. You can be big, small tall, short, thin and nothing is wrong with that. It would improve the lifes of women who are self conscious for one reason or another. To answer your statements about men Dittany. Men are self conscious about clothing and weight, hairstyle etc. just like women. I would say I am more self conscious than my wife. She buys things from primark etc but I would rather save and get things with a brand name. My wife wears jeans, tracksuits, dresses, skirts those tight 3 1/4 length things which I can't remember the name of :P and many different hairstyles and shoes etc. As I said though above I thought it was about telling women that they could be whatever size and shape they wanted and that there is nothing wrong with that.

About clothing choices and the highstreet. :P I should have quoted it tbh. What do you think about what I said about the bunting itself and what I actually thought it was about? Do you think that could be the idea behind it? This is what I thought it was about when I seen the video and artical.

I thought: perverts.

Oh hi Omg, I guess knickers got your attention too.

Love you dittany xxx

Lol HHLimbo not quite I tend to read all the topics that aren't purple :P

I think I agree with Elephants here. It is interesting enough as an art project but it is not feminist. It says nothing about the real and continued discrimination of women, and will not make anyone think about our value never mind change opinions.

myxd - I have had a look at the festival and conference and the talks and presentations look very interesting. I agree the registration fees could do with more clarity/simplification next year. Looks like there were several free talks too, which is good but was not apparent from the programme outline on the website.

The BBC piece focused on sewing and knickers and didnt mention the carnival conference, which is a real shame. Could the University press office help there (not sure how these things work).

I think mumsnetters in feminism might be interested to know about the next carnival/conference, so do let us know on here too..

As for the knicker-bunting, I think underwear is a private personal matter for most women, hence why some might not have wanted to touch other womens knickers or hang their knickers in view on an outdoor washing line. Making bunting out of them could be seen as disrespectful and perhaps offensive. I myself prefer to see womens belongings and bodies treated with respect.

It was nice to see you on here, do come and join the discussions.

Hi, sorry I've been off list for a few days. Not sure what else I can say here and now, but to clarify a few points: the knicker workshop and bunting was a small part of the carnival, and I think it is relevant and important - and political - but we were working on many fronts and there was much else on offer, including the more obviously political, including papers, petitions, and performances about women and sexual violence and many other aspects of women's lives.

It's been extremely useful to get an idea of what people who didn't attend the carnival might have liked - thanks so much to you all and to mumsnet, as this info and advice isn't usually available. I conceived the carnival, and was part of a team who designed and organised it, but we can only include what people offer (or we can persuade people to do). We had a very open call-for-presentations aimed at artists, activists, academics, community workers and 'everyone with an interest in arts and gendered change' so I hope next time people here will offer stuff, or suggest people or strands. The carnival worked (and it did - the feedback was exhilarating ) because so many amazing people came together and took a risk in exploring ideas together, to then go back into the world to keep up the feminist fights and to start new projects because of coming together and listening and talking and passing on info. I want the next carnival to be even better, and I have learnt a lot.

A few other points: I am still at a loss to know why 'changing meanings' isn't seen as important by anyone who wants to change the society we live in - what's the point of ever talking to anyone if you are not open to change; plus winning people's hearts and minds about pay, violence, and so many other vital issues is part of cultural and societal transformation. 'Doing' without 'thinking' is what causes so many problems (and really thinking means being prepared to be surprised at what you discover); we need both, surely ...?

I definitely agree the carnival pricing scheme could have been clearer - in our desire to make the event economically accessible to many (via sliding scales, donations, and subsidized& free places) it ended up being quite complex, and defeated some of its object.

We wanted many more community events, but this was the most we could do with the people we had organising (really, we were often working 16 hour days to make this happen, and all working in our ?spare time? - I have a 50% contract, for instance, and others were students or retired).

And finally, if anyone is interested in social and community art, but didn?t find value in the knicker project, you might like this one, organised by one of the carnival participants: www.isbigsocietyworking.co.uk