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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I want to come back to feminism, but...

47 replies

practicallyimperfect · 17/02/2011 08:04

I find it difficult to reconcile the working women having it all. I used to be a feminist, read loads, campaigned etc, but after I had my son I found it difficult. I don't want to have to work, or be the breadwinner. I want to stay at home with my son. I changed my name when I got married, mainly as I hated my maiden name- not very feminist!

Is it too late for me?

OP posts:
upsydaisysexstylist · 17/02/2011 11:15

Dropdeadfred surely feminism is about women and men having the same choices. It is up to each family to decide who works and what lifestyle they want to maintain, women do not have the monopoly on being the stay at home parent

Dropdeadfred · 17/02/2011 11:31

upsydaisysexstylis exactly - sorry I didn't necessaarily mean that ll men should be the ones ou of the home working...that should be a choice
BUT unfortunately we are all left without the choice of 'not working' because bills have to be paid etc regardless of whether you are male or female

FlamingoBingo · 17/02/2011 11:48

"Strangely don't the majority of people, regardless of sex, have to work..to pay bills, live etc?? Why should women have a choice that men don't?"

They don't, DDF. IMO, this is about a family having the option for one of the parents to be able to stay at home to care for childre, but without it being devalued or causing financial problems later in life just because it's not paid.

LibraPoppyGirl · 17/02/2011 13:45

I'm new to this thread and this topic, so please bear with me.

I am very interested to read and learn from what is being said here. I have just the post from FlamingoBingo :-

They don't, DDF. IMO, this is about a family having the option for one of the parents to be able to stay at home to care for childre, but without it being devalued or causing financial problems later in life just because it's not paid.

This I find very interesting and agree wholeheartedly. If a woman and a man have had a family and have made the decision that the woman will be the SAHP and the man will go out to work (for whatever reason they have decided), then why, later in life should their partnership break down, should the woman be penalised for not having been the money earner?

vesuvia · 17/02/2011 14:19

practicallyimperfect wrote - "I used to be a feminist ... I don't want to have to work ... I changed my name when I got married, mainly as I hated my maiden name- not very feminist!"

Please bear in mind that "wanting to work" and "wanting to have to work" are different things.

Where is the pressure coming from to make you feel that you must want to work? From Government attitudes to non-workers, or from feminism?

Changing your name might not be very feminist, but it's not compulsory either, is it?

Perhaps you can use your contributions to this forum as a way of getting back into feminism? I hope so.

vesuvia · 17/02/2011 14:26

Dropdeadfred wrote - "Strangely don't the majority of people, regardless of sex, have to work..to pay bills, live etc?? Why should women have a choice that men don't?"

What choice wouldn't/don't men have? Are you saying that men are not allowed to choose to work or not?

Men can and do choose to work or not work.

LibraPoppyGirl · 17/02/2011 14:28

Sorry I've omitted to type on the end of my post - and vice versa Blush

Ormirian · 17/02/2011 14:34

SAHMs have never been critisised on here for being anti-feminist. As a WOHM the only thing I find unfeminist about SAHMs is if they tell me that I am not being a good mother by going out to work, that I can't do both jobs well enough, that I should stay at home and think of the children Hmm And I've read those sentiments on here many times. Apart from that I don't think your working status has any bearing.

And choice ? Well Rhadegunde said it all.

vesuvia · 17/02/2011 14:38

My biggest problem with "choice feminism" is that it usually turns out to be:

"a woman can make any choice she likes, as long as it serves the wishes of men".

SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 14:40

That is an excellent question libra, it really gets to the heart of it.

FWIW and to practicallyimperfect I don't remember seeing any threads on here saying that SAHM are anti-feminist and I'm here all the time...

For my own circumstances I think it is a shame that DH and I weren't able to really choose which of us took the time out of work with the DDs - as maternity leave is only available to the woman - and similarly which one of us went part-time. Theoretically people can make choices but in practice making a choice which is outside the "norm" is pretty difficult.

I would like a society where gender roles were much less defined and people could do what suited them and their families and situations, rather than being shoehorned into "traditional" roles.

SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 14:41

orm I hope it's not people who claim to be feminists who have berated you for working? Shock

Ormirian · 17/02/2011 14:50

No not at all! But that is the only way I think being a SAHM is unfeminist - if they decide that their way is the only way.

SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 15:19

The SAHM/WOHM shouty threads are very interesting - the reason they get so hairy is that so many women are defensive about how they do it.

Which is interesting as I don't think that many men get defensive/upset about how other men raise their children.

So eg I work part time and DD1 goes to nursery. I know that when anyone asks me (do men get asked who is looking after their children while they work?) I launch into a great long schpiel about what I do and why it is OK. Because I know that my choices may be judged. If the person I am talking to does something different then my keen explanations of why what I do is fine can easily be taken as a criticism of whatever they do. They feel judged and can launch into their own schpiel about why what they do is fine, leading me to feel they are criticising my choices. And so round in circles.

It is the same on these boards but writ large.

The interesting questions from my POV are

Why are so many people interested in what choices families make about work and childcare? And why are these things always framed as the women's choice rather than a family choice?

Why are so many people judgemental about other people's choices

Why are women not more confident about these things. I know my kids are fine - why do I get defensive when anyone asks what the arrangements are? Does anyone ever ask DH this question - and how would he feel if he did?

There is a lot going on and I think it really shows up society's underlying feelings about women and what they are for.

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 17/02/2011 15:50

There were definitely a few posters on the recent big SAHMs and feminism thread who thought SAHMing was unfeminist. And not just Xenia. There was one person in particular I remember because she didn't give a reason, just kept saying (well, she probably said it twice) 'it doesn't sit well with me.'

But who cares? MNers think many different things, that's what makes it fun, and the anti-SAHM feminists are a tiny minority, I think we can cope with the odd challenge - it gives you a nudge to start thinking harder about what you are doing and why, apart from anything else.

Rhadegunde · 17/02/2011 16:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rhadegunde · 17/02/2011 16:18

This reply has been deleted

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Rhadegunde · 17/02/2011 16:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

practicallyimperfect · 17/02/2011 16:41

I don't think I explained myself very well, I was up most of night with ds. The thing for me is that there isn't a choice for me. In the same way as there was no choice for my mum to stay at home, there is no choice for me to go out to work. Ironically the only ones of my friends who have had that free choice are those that either came from a bit more money than me or married into it. Therefore they have comfortable mortgages and have the choice.

I have no choice. I am the breadwinner and I must continue working to support us. That isn't a choice. Now house prices as such aren't a feminist issue, but many women of my peer group (I am 29) are in the same boat.

The mortgage situation means that we cannot afford to buy a house on one wage as used to be the case.

Yes I have been made to feel that a feminist mum is a working one (not on here). As it is I am returning again to full time work as that is the only option (I was given part time for a year)

OP posts:
Rhadegunde · 17/02/2011 16:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 17/02/2011 18:53

I have limited time and haven't read the whole thread so apologies but one of the things I feel about this OP, is:

The idea that Feminism is about the 'right' for women to work is a myth.

Feminism has never been about the RIGHT to work - historically mothers have always worked inside and outside the home, in the mills, down the mines, on the land, in service, in teaching. The stay-at-home housewife is a fairly new invention. Those who were wealthy enough not to require a salary had staff to bring up their children.

Feminism is about the right for women to have the same opportunities in work and education as men.

Please don't buy into the 'women are suffering from having it all' line promulgated by certain sections of the press who lay the blame with feminism. Without feminism there would be no child benefit paid to the mother, maternity leave, paternity leave, protection of the rights of pregnant employees etc etc - working mothers would be in a lot worse position.

AliceWorld · 17/02/2011 21:14

I have seen one thread recently where people suggested SAHMs weren't feminist. It was a minority view and lead to a pretty heated discussion.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/02/2011 14:21

I don't think wanting to be a SAHP or wanting to change your name is unfeminist OP, but I agree with what subsequent posters have said about "choice feminism" because IME, this is often attributed to behaviours that actually harm women. It frustrates me that "choosing" to be a lap dancer or escort is repackaged as an empowering choice for women, when it merely serves to objectify us.

Lots of men want to be SAHPs too, but you are right that economics dictate that for many families, they simply cannot survive on one wage alone.

I post most frequently on the Relationships board and I see thread after thread from women who lost their financial independence after having DCs and now feel trapped in relationships they no longer want - and this is likely to get worse with the coalition government's proposals that are being dressed up as protecting the "family", when in reality they are creating obstacles to women leaving abusive relationships.

I admit that this often makes me wish that more women retained their careers and opportunities and therefore the power to live independently and that when having discussions about who is going to be the SAHP, more thought was given to the primary carer's employment opportunities if the relationship ends, or when the SAHP decides to return to work. It puzzles me why so often it is assumed that the primary carer for children will be their mother, especially when her earning power is higher and/or her partner would also like that choice.

Depending on prior qualifications and skills, men returning to the workplace after SAH parenthood are still more likely to secure a job and earn more than their female partners.

As a working parent, I have frequently had irritating questions about who is caring for my children, when my husband received no such enquiries. Likewise, especially when the DCs were younger, if I went away for the weekend with friends, I would get lots of questions about who looked after the DCs and most irritatingly, lots of "Ooh, isn't he good?" when I replied that they were being cared for by their father Angry. As you can imagine, my H has never once had the same questions or observations that I was good, when he did the same. I might add, that most of these "enquiries and observations" I faced, were from other women...

On the flip side, my daily rate is considerably higher than my H's and if I don't go to work, I don't get paid. If the DCs are ever sick on one of my working days, my H will always be the one to take a day's leave. Some of his same-age male colleagues only seem to understand this in economic terms i.e. that it makes financial sense for my H to take time off, rather than it being the norm for parents to share the "sick kids" days. My H now observes that our way of doing things is much more common amongst his younger male colleagues, so maybe there's hope!.

My perspective on your situation is that like many men, you are working out of necessity. That isn't unfeminist at all, just as a man who wants to be a SAHP and begrudges the time he has to spend away from his family, isn't less of a man.

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