A favour...

[deepheat]

Howdy. I'm a bloke wo has posted on a couple of threads here, got interested and then lurked on a few more to try and get an idea of what views might be expressed on a feminism messageboard.

And I'm none the wiser as to what feminism is. I figure that this is pretty understandale bearing in mind that I'm guessing every person on this messageboard will have different opinons anyway.

But its an odd thing. Feminism is a massively loaded term and yet would appear to encompass so much. People have talked about radical feminism, but what is that? What was radical ten years ago would no longer be radical now. Is it a standalone ideology or one that responds to the culture of its age?

It also seems like it is quite a politicised ideology, e.g. the threads about Assange and football are full of people trying to turn them into issues of sex/gender rater than addressing the issues on the terms as they present themselves (I accept that this may be to be expected on a feminism messageboard).

I'm not a troll. I am genuinely curious and genuinely eager to understand more. I wouldn't call myself a feminist (partly because I don't know what one is) but I am keen to address issues of discrimination in my sphere and have done so. But I do want to celebrate the difference between men and women, and I believe that those differences are fundamental. By the same token, I also believe that there is still a massive cultural inheritence for women that does disadavantage them in many aspects of daily life and that this is willingly perpetuated by men (and women) to their own ends.

For what its worth, I'm 31, very happily married with one kid and another on the way. In our house every decision is discussed and each other's views respected but... the final decision is mine. And it is because I'm a man. My wife believes that it is important for a man to be the 'leader' of the household. We talked this through at length and I wasn't fond of it (lots of responsibility!) but it has worked for 12 years. BUT... it only works on the basis that I am a model husband who gives her absolute respect at all times. And I do.

Basically, I would like to ask everyone on this board to reply, stating what feminism is to them. If feminism is a cause, then what is the final destination people are aiming for?

The final destination is equality of opportunity. Not being treated the same, because we're not the same, but being treated with equal fairness. That's how I'd define feminism.

2cats2many Thanks for that. Constructive. Did you consider that I'm genuinely interested?

Hassled Cheers. That sits fairly well with what I would have thought was the 'aim' of feminism.

Hi deepheat

I don't agree with you that "the differences are fundamental" between men and women, in fact I am pretty much of the opinion that there are very few differences to speak of. Obviously one lot of us has breasts and can feed babies and has ovaries and a uterus (usually) and can theoretically become pregnant and give birth, and the other lot have testes and a penis and generally more facial hair etc (obviously varying between races etc).

But in terms of important differences that should determine anything much about day to day life - nah, not really. To an extent I imagine that one day in the future (which will obviously be a feminist utopia :)) people will look back and laugh as much at the way we try to ascribe loads of differences to men and women as we now look back (mostly) aghast at the theories of racial differences.

The aims of feminism for me are for men and women to live as people primarily, in an equal state, for gendered violence against women to end, for those structures of society that have been set up to favour men or disadvantage women to be reorganised, to have equal representation for men and women in parliament...think that's the main few.

Hi deepheat

Radical feminism is a philosophy emphasising the patriarchal roots of inequality between women and men, or, more particularly, social/ political/ cultural etc. dominance of women by men, therefore oppressing women and privileging men.

Radical actually means ?getting to the root? which opposes existing political and social organisations in general because it is essentially tied to patriarchy. Thus, radical feminists tend to be cynical of political action within the current system, and instead support cultural change that undermines patriarchy and connected hierarchical structures.

Radical feminism opposes patriarchy, not men.

Celebrating the difference between men and women implies that there is a set difference and that men and women, to be celebrated, must conform to it. If you enjoy performing male gender and your wife enjoys performing female gender then it is not a big deal for the two of you but you have to realise that not everyone wants to live that way. For example, I am a woman and if you met me you would assume I am female. I wouldn't be offended if you made that assumption and outside of a feminist discussion I wouldn't correct you, but I don't see myself as female.

Anyway, as a radical feminist, to me the aim of feminism should be eradicating societal pressure to perform gender, which I feel would get rid of most of the problems that face women, men and children. Also to recognise the actual innate differences between men and women: women are the ones who can bear children, and women are smaller than men, which contributes a lot to the oppression of women.

I've seen your posts on other boards Deepheat and found them measured and thoughtful, so I cannot see why you received a hostile biscuit.

For me, feminism is about recognising that patriarchical structures exist and not pretending otherwise. I have no time for people who think that all the battles have been won, because that is so far from the truth as to be laughable. So in my daily life and through my work, it is about challenging that patriarchy and trying to dissemble it, with the eventual goal of men and women being treated as equals.

I agree with the poster who says that she doesn't think men and women are inherently different. However, we are certainly conditioned differently through our social constructs.

I would like to see more male feminists, because history has proved that change happens when the powerful group challenges its own dominance and dismantles it. Ergo, several men of my acquaintance (including my H) are better feminists than some women I know.

I also have low tolerance for what has been coined "choice feminism" and I think this is a curious backlash to the original ideas of feminism. Unfortunately, lots of younger women and men seem to think that feminism is all about a woman having choices, even when those choices actually hurt other women and the cause of feminism generally. I am thinking particularly of women who enter the sex industry in all its forms.

It still feels like a feminist taboo at times to admit that women hurt other women through their choices, but I have no ideological resistance to this admission, because it is a truth I recognise every day - and often on MN, when there are threads about lapdancing clubs, escorts and porn use.

Some personal comment about your own situation. I find it profoundly depressing that a young woman (your DW) believes that you should be the "leader" of the house or that men should be the final arbiter on key decisions. If my H had tried to give me that responsibility, I would have refused it though, as would my H if he had been offered your deal (once he had fainted and been revived by smelling salts ).

I'd be intrigued at why your wife feels the way she does and how feminism has come to pass her by? And of particular pertinence, why you accepted that deal? Your role in rejecting this is a prime example of what I referred to earlier in this post - had you refused the patriarchical role in your household, you would be a member of a dominant group refuting that dominance.

final aim? people to be treated as people, not men or women. other than the physical ability to bear and feed children, i see no differences between men and women that have not been carefully socially constructed.

i want to see equal numbers of men and women making the decision to stay at home and raise children, and equal numbers of men and women choosing to work full time to support their families. and a society that doesn't bat an eyelid at those choices.

i want a society that does not pressure women to alter their shape and colour their faces and hair to conform to a narrow measure of what is deemed to be 'attractive'. and i want a society that celebrates individuality in all its forms, not binary conformity to the norm.

i want men and women to have active caring roles in equal measure. i want men and women to take part in science, engineering and law in equal measure. i want male and female teachers working alongside each other in primary schools and getting equally promoted to headships.

i want men to look at their partners and see an equal, whatever their gender. i want women to look at their partners and see an equal. i don't want women to look at their husbands and see the final arbiter.

i want everyone to be a feminist.

i don't want much, me.

what do you want, deepheat? you've had 12 years of apparently maintaining the status quo, despite your supposed misgivings. any chance you're going to make a difference?

oh, but howdy.

what does your wife do? what do you do? talk to us about your child care choices and how you (as the final arbiter) arrived at them. (doesn't matter a jot what the actual answer is, there's no right or wrong btw, just curious how this 'decision-making' happens in your household)

fwiw, the bare facts of my life would lead you to conclude i had never heard of the word feminist. appearances can be deceptive, eh?

Oh indeedy

can you all explain for the billionth time why you should be treated as if you were human, really explain it

why did the op get a biscuit indeed

Here have another

that would have been more succinct, yep.

I welcome your post, deepheat, though some of your remarks set my teeth on edge. Are you and DW christians? That thing about you being the leader - and it working as long as you're a considerate H - sounds very like the christian ideal to me. This does matter, because christianity involves several tenets that I consider antithetical to feminism.

Given that you're clearly an intelligent, thoughtful individual and that your life seems to be working pretty well for you in a not-all-that-feminist way: Why do you ask? What is it that you wish to learn?

Ageing Grace Not looking to learn any particular thing beyond a straw poll of views I suppose. Its just genuine curiosity (realise that makes feminism sound like some kind of freak show, but that isn't what I'm getting at). Why? Looked at a few threads on this board and others (esp. Relationships) and have found some comments from a feminist perspective have genuinely made me think about certain issues and situations, whilst some have got me pretty riled to be honest. Obviously within any school of thought there will be disagreement between its proponents, but it just seems more marked within feminism. Basically, I'm just a curious person who enjoys learning.

Madwoman... Can I make a difference? I'm not here to jump on the bandwagon, if thats what you mean. I'm not suggesting that starting a thread about feminism suddenly makes me some kind of crusader. The chances are that I will go on my merry way, maintaing the status quo - as you put it - in some aspects of my life, but hopefully challenging it in others. I am responsive to compelling arguments though.

Tigerchilli Thank you.

Englebert.../Elephants Apologies if this thread has been done before. I did scan through a few, but not that hard. I guess that I think the physical differences between males and females are pretty fundamental. The majority of women here will have experienced childbirth, breastfeeding etc. That is a big enough difference in itself, but I find it hard to believe that it also doesn't point to significant emotional/character differences as well (I don't use this as an excuse to generalise - everybody will still be different but I guess you could look at prevailing dispositions between gender. Sorry, its still early and I can't quite find the right words yet...)

madwoman My wife is a teacher but is only working one day a week at the moment as she looks after DD. I work for a housing association, primarily managing supported accommodation for people with drug dependency, mental health difficulties etc. At home I do the majority of the cooking, cleaning etc simply because I'm less knackered (not out of some martyr complex). DD is hard work. We don't have a set up where DW DW is the 'main' parent or anything. We do it together (and make a point of doing it together in front of DD) Should clarify one thing about the issue of me being the final arbiter on decisions: it is a pragmatic choice by both of us based on the fact that we've learnt from experience that compromise is generally not healthy when two people disagree, and it is better simply for one person to decide. Why was it me? As I said, I do think the fact that I'm male is probably the reason. As it stands, I don't think that I have actually had to make that 'final decision' for years simply because we've been together a long time and are just pretty comfortable with each other. Disagreements are rare.

What I will do is ask DW how she feels about this set up in light of some of the things people have written on here. We're not particularly stuck in our ways so maybe it will change. I'll let you know.

Thanks for the replys.

Incidentally, reason that DW is the one who is at home with DD during the week is career based. It is much easier for her to take a career break than it is me. It also simply suits us better. Possibly we arrived at these decisions because of the prevailing culture rather than based on ourselves solely as individuals? Honestly don't know, but I suppose I'd be surprised if there wasn't an element of that. Have taken a couple of weeks holiday specifically to look after DD and give DW a change/some time to herself and tbh, I'm not jealous of DW in the slightest!

I would say that I am a feminist almost by default because I beleive that our society should be meritocratic, and everyone should be given equal opportunities according to their abilities

Re your comments, you are of course right that there huge differences between men and women in our society - but I very strongly disagree that those differences are innate. Men and women become different because they are treated differently.

The reason that I replied to you deepheat, was that you do seem aware of some pretty crucial things (e.g. that feminists are all individuals who may well disagree), and you are being pretty honest about yourself. In terms of your personal relationship with your wife, I think reassessing it is probably a good idea. If your wife is the same age as you, the last time the "rules" were established she was only a teenager. Look back at 19 year olds now - they're pretty different in confidence, ambition and understanding than 30 year olds aren't they? It may be that your wife was happy to be treated as the junior partner then, but has since come to grips with adult life and might grow to feel that you are domineering/patronising in your continued assumption of the last word. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, because you don't sound like a bully at all, but you are doing the right thing in looking again at how your life works.

Also, look at your relationships with other women - your mother/sister/colleague etc. Do you find that your home life is affecting the way you feel about women in general? That you expect to have some kind of authority over them?

Hi Elephants. I'm very confident that my wife doesn't see me as domineering etc. I can understand why you might think that from what I've written, but when she is unhappy she definitely lets me know about it and I think that any underlying resentment would have well and truly manifested itself by now. I think the point is that she isn't treated like the "junior partner'" although, again, I can understand why you used the term.

Tbh, I only mentioned this part of our marital set-up in the OP because I felt that as I was asking people for their opinions, views etc that it was only fair that I give a little bit of background to myself. The reality is that as an issue, it never materialises itself in our relationship because we communicate enough that we don't reach the point where I - or she - ever have to 'put the foot down'.

Re my relationships with other women. I became aware when I started managing staff some years back that I did treat women differently in small ways (this wasn't due to set up at home and was pointed out to me very forcefully by a member of staff) and made a significant effort to re-evaluate my perceptions of all my staff and ensure that I wasn't making assumptions etc. That was some time ago. I am now an informal point of contact for staff who feel that they have been discriminated against in some way by our company because I genuinely believe that there are issues to address (best summed up by tigerchilli and the first para of helenba's post above) and try and do so (it was an issue like this that made me post on the feminism board).

So in the workplace, yeah, I have had to address my perception of women (all staff, tbh). I'm probably not perfect, but I do double check my decisions to ensure that they're fair. In the rest of my life, I can honestly say that I don't have a 'feeling about women in general'. We're all different.

Congrats on reviewing your own attitude to the extent that you've become an advisor against discrimination!

In your 08:12 post, you said Possibly we arrived at these decisions because of the prevailing culture rather than based on ourselves solely as individuals? Honestly don't know, but I suppose I'd be surprised if there wasn't an element of that.

I would, too. This is, for me, the sole purpose of feminism - to eliminate the cultural assumptions that assign values to people based purely on their gender - this happens to men and women.

Taking childbirth as one instance: Every woman giving birth needs some mat leave because she has to undergo a physical trauma. Also, every baby needs full-on attention and every family benefits from baby bonding with both parents. These are separate issues, but are still generally treated as one. Women give birth, therefore (supposedly), women get the leave which they should then use to attend to baby and promote bonding.

In reality, some women need a lot of rest before and/or after childbirth, whereas others can drop the sprog in between meetings. A baby is content with full-time attention from any qualifie adult of either gender, as tribal villages and the employers of nannies have always demonstrated. Both parents need to bond with the child, so wouldn't it make more sense for BOTH to spend extra time with the child whilst it's new?

If you split these questions out, mat leave is still desirable in the majority of cases but I think you'd find that - all other things being equal - the majority of families would prefer to share this leave between both parents. My problem is that all other things aren't equal. Social expectations still push the woman towards using her leave for baby care, and so does economic bias. Whenever significant paternity leave reform is proposed, the business associations screech that it'll cause them to lose too much time from key workers: their obvious assumption being that male workers are more 'key' than female ones.

In summary - and this is only my view - women's inequality stems entirely from a simultaneous pathologisation and idealisation of motherhood. Unfortunately, it's spread to the whole of female life. We are either potential mothers, women who are or should be mothers, or women who are past their use-by date. That's only one aspect of our lives and of our selves, but it currently defines all others. To escape this definition is still a battle.

Sorry, I went much broader than I intended to. Leaving my post as is, though - I always learn from replies on this board!

deepheat wrote - "the issue of me being the final arbiter on decisions ... Why was it me? As I said, I do think the fact that I'm male is probably the reason."

What is it about your maleness that you (and your wife?) think qualifies you to be the final arbiter?

Why do you think compromise is unhealthy? I think it is often the best solution.
Occasionally - say when you are going to the cinema and can't agree on a film - compromise is the worst solution, far better to pick one film than sit in the lobby. But in the few cases like that can't you just alternate?

One of the reasons I split with my xp, was that I was always the final arbiter of everything, because he wouldn't take responsibility for decisions. It drove me nuts and I resented his refusal to be an adult.

Not saying that's the dynamic going on in your relationship deepheat but god, how can you stand it?

I'm a feminist for the same reason I'm an anti-racist or anti-homophobe. I think it's ludicrous and unjust to organise societal structures around something as unimportant as sex or race, and disadvantage or privilege individuals within those groups jsut on the basis of belonging to a group and whatever the media and majority opinion says, we patently still do that and when we've stopped doing it, there will be no need for feminism.

I do think the fact that I'm male is probably the reason.

Do you? I don't. I think that in general, in any couple, one ultimately is the decision maker. In my case it works like this: for most decisions, DH isn't really bothered, so I decide. Meaning that when he expresses a view it tends to be pretty deep-seated, so unless I strenuously object I go with what he wants. If strenuous on both sides, we'll normally try to go for a compromise.

Do you think it's male, or personality type, or some combination of the two?

Feminism for me is making choices as people, not constrained to choices that are dictated by gender.

AgeingGrace

Great that you went broader than you intended to - you made some interesting and thought-provoking points!

I think there is a real trade-off between the domestic sphere and the public sphere. I hated the fact that I couldn't be more involved with my children. In practice, the greatest resistance came from my (now ex) wife. She wanted me to be involved- but not too involved (to know my place, as it were!). It's very difficult to overcome this resistance because most people, men and women, don't seem to get it. I hate the fact that if I talk about it many feminists will also say it's a non-issue and if only men would sort themselves out it wouldn't be a problem (i.e. it's my own fault!)

I suspect that, typically, there are some dispositional differences between men and women but these have been translated into particular social and cultural structures that are horribly confining and result in difference becoming a seriously 'loaded' issue.

OP: I personally think the feminist conception of 'the patriarchy' is seriously over-baked and too often takes on the appearance of some kind of conspiracy theory (at least in the careless way it's often used).

Yes but how d'you get round that Andre?

It's like any shorthand really. Like "capitalism". There's no conspiracy, it's just the way things are. That's why it's so important to define and name things isn't it, so that it's no longer seen as just the way things are, always were and always will be.