Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

William Leith article in today's Times

75 replies

RibenaBerry · 27/11/2010 16:18

I can't link because of the paywall, but this article made me so f'ing mad. The old 'men are in crisis actually, it's not women who have difficulties' line.

And Mr Leith, just in case you google yourself and find this, the mouse in the Gruffalo is male. It says so in the Gruffalo's child. It's a story about two male characters - one smart, one stupid. It says nothing about the undermining of men in society Hmm

OP posts:
BadPoet · 29/11/2010 14:25

Has anyone posted yet?

BalloonSlayer · 29/11/2010 14:27

He wants to redress the balance and start reading Thomas the Tank Engine. In the old stories there are no female engines and a lot of the accidents are called by "old ladies" who drop their parcels or trip up the drivers with their umbrellas.

We have one of the new Thomas books, about Emily. Who is an engine described as "beautiful." And later in the story she loses her temper with some trucks carrying flour and shoves them into the water. She gets splashed with "a sticky floury mess" and there is an illustration of her getting a faceful of white gunge. Hmm

StayFrosty · 29/11/2010 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BitOfFun · 29/11/2010 17:13

William Leith is a total prat who is so far up his own arse that he actually peers out of his mouth. He was involved with an MNer for ages, and I have this on very good authority.

Spero · 29/11/2010 17:25

I remember the thread that got deleted!!! He sounded awful. And then he got back with the mother of his child and milked it for all it was worth in double page Daily Mail articles.

Sorry, this may be more celeb gossip then serious feminist debate, but I suspect the way he treats the women in his life is very revealing about his attitudes towards womankind as a whole.

PrematureEjoculation · 29/11/2010 17:37

balloon that happens to Percy in a 'a close shave' too
James gets covered with tar at least once.
and Percy gets dug out of a mud bank (percy runs away) and pulled out of the water. thiough yes, all the characters in the original were boy-trains (aside from the carriages, and Daisy the diesel)

and generally all the characters in the books we read are animals of indeterminate gender.

aside from ITNG books.

RibenaBerry · 29/11/2010 17:51

breathtakingben

Well, I'm not sure why you'd ask that unless you're the journalist for one of the articles, or you're from the Times and trawl the web for reaction. However, I will answer as if you are just another MNer and give you the benefit of the doubt.

I thought that the Janice Turner inverview with Hugh Dennis was interesting light reading. Very insightful that he's noticed no men come up to him and say that they're like Pete, just that their family is like Outnumbered.

The personal stories were an interesting snap shot. The happiness article ok, but why was it illustrated by a semi naked woman?

Overall though, I struggled with the concept. Ooh, men are in crisis. If they are it is only because the world is inching slowly slowly slowly towards being structured more equitably in some areas. All that 'oh, they don't know how to be men anymore' stuff rings hollow for me. The men who struggled are those who struggle with the idea that the world isn't totally shaped round men anymore. The struggle is the giving up of privilge. It's a bit like running a story on how white south africans couldn't cope with integration. You'd never do that without acknowledging the wider political context. Indeed, you couldn't, because it would be so blatant in everyone's understanding - but the underlying issue is never acknowledged in gender politics. Somehow men adapting is never acknowledged as having to give up privilige in the same way (no, Leith's Nazi analogy does not count).

I would like to see something more thoughtful. There's a lot to be said. Take those stats trotted out about male underachievement at school. I have never once seen an article that asks why boys start school less able to sit still and listen. It's taken as a bioligical norm and all the articles I have seen are about changing teaching methods to fit boys better (if you want to be cynical and political, bending the world back to the historically male preferences.). How about someone exploring whether we are letting boys down in the modern world by conditioning them to be physical. There is some fascinating research about how adults struggle to relate to a baby if not told its gender (and why would that be an issue, unless we had underlying stereotypes in our behaviour) and how baby boys and girls are equally verbal and physical at (I think) about 9 months, but the verbal behaviour is rewarded and encouraged in girls and the physical in boys. That article may well have been written in the mainstream, but I've not seen it.

I would be interested to see more about flexible parenting and parents who both flex their careers to care for children. If you wanted a male slant, I do think that they have different challenges doing that to women.

Just for starters.

OP posts:
StayFrosty · 29/11/2010 20:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BalloonSlayer · 29/11/2010 22:27

Premature oh yes I know all the other stories < shudders >

There's just something about it . . . you know you read on here about the blokes who play "Big Cock, Little Cock" and that they have said they deliberately make sure that they keep getting sprayed with white stuff for a joke? It made me think of that - as if it was some junior writer having a laugh with the lads.

breathtakingben · 29/11/2010 22:43

Ineresting :)

I thought that the celebrity stuff was dull beyong belief, and the interesting section on the outnumbered didn't justify the rest of the article. The section illustrated by a half naked woman was captioned with something along the lines of "What do men want? It's not what you think" IIRC.

The personal stories weren't analysed enough for me, and some seemed to have little to do with men, which was the focus of the magazine this week.

The Idea of men being constantly told they were disposable and being told they have to damage themselves to protect women seemed interesting; it's not just women who are oppressed, but also economically weak men.
The stats on the sruvey of advertising, where all objects of violence/ victims of put- downs were male was interesting.

Also there was nothing on LGBT which might have been interesting.

breathtakingben · 29/11/2010 22:46

Also, the idea that men are forced to hide their emotions for weeks , and the differing treatment of men and women who cried/ made someone cry at the office was important to make me recognize that, in the same way as women are oppressed and objectified in our society, so are men seen as "success objects".

Sakura · 29/11/2010 22:47

lol @ faceful of white gunge

controlfreakery · 29/11/2010 22:48

william leith, for example, is an ARSE.

Sakura · 29/11/2010 22:53

breathtakingben men are opressed just like women? Men are the ruling class. If men are suffering problems despite being the ruling class then it proves what a defunct system it is. With true equality reached, when women are on par with men in all public spaces, perhaps masculinity can have an overhaul.

StayFrosty · 29/11/2010 23:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sakura · 30/11/2010 00:15

lol!

breathtakingben · 30/11/2010 19:42

Oh yes, because the only thing a a poster with a male name in the feminism section of mumsnet could do would be to "wind up the man haters"; after all, that's what feminists are... Hmm (that was sarcasm!)

And only "ladies" would play bingo Hmm
Besides, most of that thread seems to contain insults which have no relation toanything I would come out with - that they are wrong is

obvious.

Men may be the ruling class, but those men (and any women in the same position I presume) will only have reached such places by being ruthless, and I doubt these people care any more about economically weak men than they do about women.

Off topic - aren't those adverts in which all the board housewives play bingo really infuriating!

breathtakingben · 30/11/2010 19:43

*bored Blush

HerBeatitude · 30/11/2010 22:32

Perhaps those poor oppressed men who are just as oppressed by the patriarchy as women are, could start opposing the patriarchy Ben? Tht would be a start in ending their oppression.

sixpercenttruejedi · 30/11/2010 23:01

but then who would they kick when they got home? Hmm

breathtakingben · 01/12/2010 10:29

DO you really think that every oppressed man commits domestic violence?

Sakura · 01/12/2010 10:33

sorry I'm struggling to get my head around the concept of all these fictional oppressed men you're talking about

will get back to you on your question

HerBeatitude · 01/12/2010 12:38

Who cares if every oppressed man commits DV or not?

Where is this going? What's your angle, Ben?

HerBeatitude · 01/12/2010 12:39

What are oppressed men doing to end their oppression by the patriarchy? Are you an oppressed man Ben? Is the patriarchy oppressing you? If so, what are you doing about it?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 01/12/2010 12:42

Yes, I want to see Men Against the Patriarchy marching through London please. I'll be in Seven Dials at about 5 if you could go past there? Xmas Grin

New posts on this thread. Refresh page