Feminism and natural sex differences

[WriterofDreams]

I am a woman, but I know very little about feminism, so this question is posed out of curiosity more than anything. Where do feminists generally stand on genetic/biological differences between men and women? By that I mean would a lot of feminists believe that they don't exist, or would they believe that they do exist but are irrelevant?

Just to give my current thinking on it (am open to having my mind changed) I do believe there are certain stable sex differences between females and males. This has been borne out by research into the way that girls and boys develop. I realise culture has a large role to play in these differences but I also believe it is not entirely the source of them.

Would like to hear other views.

Yes.. I think I'm beginning to remember why I don't miss my periods.
Also, physical things like chocolate. I'm not an organized person but I remember thinking "Period must be due soon" because I'd find myself devouring loads of chocolate

What about pregnancy hormones! I cried at every little news item, every squashed slug, everything

Yup Sakura, I'm 35 weeks pregnant and have already bawled twice today.

Aww...
Are you worried about getting PND again? That must be weighing on your mind.
I didn't have it as bad the second time, mainly because I refused to look after everyone else and I was (shock horror) selfish and just took care of my own needs .

The first time round I was so worried about everyone else's feelings: in-laws, husband, everyone. Second time I thought "this is the one time in her life a woman gets to put herself first"

men very likely have hormonal cycles too though. of 4-6 weeks on average; men have reported that they have a low period, and a high period; during the high period they not only feel better - but have a lower body weight.

It was just common or garden depression I had last year, this is my first baby. I am worried about PND but I am very aware of the signs of depression so I'm hoping that'll help me to nip any potential problems in the bud. The only thing that helped me to recover last year was my lovely DH who basically made me rest for 6 months. I am now almost back to normal which I'm sure I would not have been without that.

On the subject of sex differences, I just find it hard to believe that everything is culturally led. Surely if that were the case there would be no such thing as homosexuality? The fact that some people go entirely against the grain of society and in some cases risk their lives to fulfill their innate sexual preference means that this huge part of our life is to a large extent biologically rather than culturally defined?

even garden-variety depression is most likely the result of societal circumstances. Women do have a lot of pressures on them that men don't have. Just countless ways they have to survive the way society has been set up.

re. homosexuality, well yes, the fact that gay and lesbians (and even transexuals) get so much stick tells me that it's clearly not a 'choice' and there's an element of biology involved. My gay friend told me he did originally fancy females but that changed in his teen years. Got no idea what that signifies.

I mean, under our patriarchal system any divergence form the male/masculine- female/feminine norm is frowned upon and can even be dangerous (gay-bashing, where gay men can end up dead and the fact that "lesbian" is used as an insult)
UNder patriarchy, people wouldn't choose to step out of this norm, because of the consequences meted out to them when they do.

anastaisia, I can believe that about men and their hormones. I read they even get peak fertile times in the month too, just like women

I can assure you my depression was not the result of circumstances. In fact, my life was going very well, I was about to get a first in my course and I had a lovely apartment, two gorgeous kittens and a great husband. Depression is an illness something that I always knew on a logical level but that I am now certain of having suffered it. The general assumption that it is circumstantial is just as pernicious as the assumptions that feminism fights against IMO. I was suicidal, had no energy, felt like the world was crashing in, and all my family could say was that I should look on the bright side. Would looking on the bright side cure schizophrenia? No. Well it doesn't cure depression either.

That's true Hopeforthebest I've seen some very interesting documentaries about cross-gendered people whose parents chose a gender for them when they were babies and then child underwent surgery to assign their genitalia to that gender. They were then brought up as that gender with all the cultural training that entails. As they grew up some these transgendered people felt they were the "wrong" gender and when genetically tested as an adult found that they were actually, genetically, the other gender. To me, this suggests that some difference was present in their brain which was not overcome by cultural training.

HopeFTBest,
Radical feminist analysis of society goes like this:

Society is patriarchal (ruled by men) and this system requires males to be masculine, and females to be feminine.
SOme societies (such as ours) believe that this system is the natural order, but the prevalence of people diverging from this norm tells us that male/masculine- female/feminine is not natural at all. It's just a made up system that benefits the dominant class (masculine men)

NOt all men benefit from patriarchy and most definitely no women.
So the men who are not typically masculine, for whatever reason are rejected by 'masculine' men and therefore society at large. Butch women also get a hard time of it.

There is a big debate as to what extent masculinity and femininity is constructed, but one thing is for sure: the idea of masculinity and femininity harms everyone, including masculine men, who often behave aggressively to prove their masculinity and often end up in jail

writersofdreams, I'm not a psychologist so yes, there may be a chemical aspect to depression. I just think that we can't ever know until we are out of this capitalist/patriarchal system. THere was a thread recently on this subject. I will try to find it if you like

I am a psychologist or was in a past life anyway! My husband is a doctor of psychology. There is a chemical element to depression, otherwise anti-depressants wouldn't work.

Anyhow, that's totally off topic for this thread.

this other poster (SwallowedaFly) knows a thing or two about the way the brain works, and she made a post about the science of anti-depressants. I'm going to find it. I'll find the link for you, as it may be interesting.

i note that somebody mentioned liking football further up the page: isn't football the social currency among small boys? i can recall my brother feigning interest in liverpool fc throughout his childhood, and have observed a friend's son abandoning pursuits which clearly came more naturally to him and embracing the stupid beautiful game in order to access the friends that came with it. the social policing of boys is unreal, afaics, and boys, in exactly the same way as girls, seem to be highly sensitive to it. so i really wouldn't be ascribing anything all that innate to the football fetish.

on the larger question, of course differences in bodily experience are going to affect behaviour to an extent, but i really do believe it is mainly cultural.

I live in Asia, which is much more feminized than the West. A good example of this is if an Asian person sees a matchstick man, or image of ambiguous sex, they assume it's female, but people from western cultures assume it's male. Femininity is much more prevalent here. MOthers let their boys' hair grow long then tie it up in bands; there isn't much difference in the bodies of men and women here- men are slim, women have no breasts and boyish hips

I like motherinferior's posts on this thread.

I think that there are certainly (obviously) differences on average between men and women - strength, having breasts/penises, men have deeper voices etc. I am happy to accept that things like PND can be caused by hormones and that equally an excess of testosterone can have a none-too-brilliant effect on men. (While I agree with sakura about mental health problems in people often being down to society).

What I am not happy with is the translation of these things, into ideas which support gender stereotypes, when there is no evidence for it.

EG women get periods and some suffer PMT, this is hormonal. For some women PMT results in them feeing weepy. This shows that women are driven by their hormones rather than by rationality, and they are therefore unreliable employees who are often not able to act rationally, they are therefore suited better to low skilled/low paid jobs, where the irrationality and fluctuating performance levels won't matter so much, and this is where they will be happier.

Aye ISNT - the important word is 'some'.

I am interested though as to how 'feminism' does deal with things like PMT and the menopause. I do get PMT, some months badly, and it can affect things like my mood, pain in my body, and also my spatial awareness i.e. parking. Therefore it is true that I and my abilities are likely to be slightly different at different times of the month (although I find PMT is dependent on how stressed I feel at the time and therefore is variable).

You can't claim a cause & effect relationship because anti-depressants work though. They don't work for everybody so there clearly isn't a linear relationship and also, the very idea of hope being brought into someone's life is a really important factor in recovery.

My point is that depression might be a result of chemical imbalances in the brain, equally though, it might cause imbalances in the brain chemical make-up.

Other differences between males and females that were thought to be proven through brain imaging, for example spacial abilities, have been shown to have been created socially first thus influencing the development of centres in the brain. Incidentally, with like, an hours spatial awareness training, the differences between men and women disappear.

and use of the word 'natural' in reference to gender differences is disingenuous because we do not live in a vacuum and society is intrinsic in the construction of 'gender'.

There are unanswered questions though.

Do men's hormones fluctuate and make them behave differently at different times? At some times might they be more prone to aggressive / risk taking behaviour which would hinder their abilities?
You say that your symptoms are worse if you are stressed - how to gauge how much is down to stress and how much is down to periods?
Do in fact many humans suffer from mood swings/changes in how they feel and their abilities, but women tend to notice when it ties in with their cycle as there's such an obvious marker?
What happens when people take the experiences of some and extrapolate (which is the bit that as a feminist I get worked up about) - eg women's spacial awareness suffers when they are pre-menstrual and therefore they should not be employed as pilots. That's extreme but it's where all the "women can't drive/use machinery" stuff comes from. That due to our femaleness, we as a whole are incapable of performing certain tasks effectively, coincidentally these same tasks are the ones which have financial reward / status attached to them.

Was to earwicga been away doing some low value/low status work (tidying up)

msrisotto so if the difference disappears after an hour then that backs up the idea that differences are entirely due to socialisation (boys being pointed towards things which involve spatial awareness more than girls and therefore getting practice in).