Ann Widdecombe

[RamblingRosa]

No, not a thread about how she introduced the shackling of female prisoners while in labour. Or about her anti gay rights record. Or about how galling it is to see her reinvent herself as some kind of nutty but endearing reality TV star.

Nope, this is about how she's using her Strictly fame to campaign against abortion and a woman's right to choose.

Abortion Rights have organised a demo/picket outside an anti-abortion fundraiser next week where Widdecombe is the star guest.
Date: Thursday 25th November
Start time: 6.30 pm
Location: Royal Overseas House, Park Place, St James?s Street, London, SW1A 1LR.

More details on www.abortionrights.org.uk

waterlooroad, you are telling me what I believe and what a lot of other people do as well - www.catholicsforchoice.org/

Righto!

hmmm.. while I'm impressed that catholics for choice exist, it's a bit like saying Islam is about feminism. Well yes and no. There are elements of Islam that can be interpreted through a feminist lens, but the fundamental basis of Islam is not feminism. Similarly, catholics who are in favour of abortion might well be desperate to court the favour of as many women as possible (in light of recent scandals) but the religion is fundamentally patriarchal.
It's a good sign that Catholicism is open to tweaking, though, and it may ultimately influence more people than a bunch of hairy feminists

Well no I am telling you what I believe as a Catholic and someone who has studied Catholic theology for decades. I have that right. I follow church teachings. Not all catholics do that on a range of issues , I include myself in that, because they are influenced by things other than their faih. They have that right.

I also read conscience.

Sakura, I don't agree with you re Islam. And there is nothing which can't 'be interpreted through a feminist lens'.

Thanks waterlooroad - I think I misread you.

waterlooroad - opposition to abortion is a relatively recent development in Catholicism. For centuries it was permitted up to quickening, i.e. the time at which a woman can feel the baby move.

So it's clearly not a fundamental tenet of the religion.

why is it a recent development? Did society become more patriarchal in the last few centuries?

Also, am interested in feminist Islam after befriending many strong muslim women. How do Islamic feminists integrate some obvious inequalities into their worldview, for example, the Koran not speaking directly to them, instead saying "Tell your women" ....

I dunno, Sakura. It was late 19th century so a very patriarchial period generally (although we had the first legislation in this country which recognised women as independent human beings, not the property of their fathers and husbands, Italy was probably different). Pope Leo XIII issued a decree in 1884 that prohibited craniotomies, a form of abortion that was used late in pregnancy to save the life of the pregnant woman.

A second degree in 1886 prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman's life. The church required excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy.

(Oddly enough during the civil war in Northern Ireland, terrorists who admitted murder were not excommunicated.)

Thanks Edam, so late abortion was traditionally allowed. The more I read and learn, the more I think patriarchy upped its antse in the twentieth century

And [shudder] that a decree was issued prohibiting a practice that would save the life of the women

Sakura - you may like Wood Turtle's blog woodturtle.wordpress.com/ She has a blog roll to other Islamic and Muslim feminists.

I've just read a piece about Nadine Dorries and the sources she used to oppose abortion www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2010/11/18/does-dorries-know-whos-research-shes-promoting/ Even for Dorries, this is quite shocking.

thanks, will have a look

Church teaching has changed on abortion, the earliest direct teachings on abortion forbade all abortions.

Then from Augustine until the 16th century they link the start of life with quickening. As abortion is wrong from the start of life it was permitted until quickening.

For a few years they went back to life beginning at conception, before switching back to quickening for 300 years. Late 19th century it went back to no abortions from conception.

The catechism clearly states that life from conception comes from God and if you destroy life it is murder. From conception a fetus is seen as having equal rights with a person. An individual choosing an abortion risks excommunication.

You may disgaree and many do, but in doing so you are contradicting church teachings. You are influenced by something other than the church, which need not be a bad thing.

but the point being those church teachings have changed. They are not immutable.

The RC anti-abortion thing is usually presented as a definite, for all-times, God-given law. But it clearly isn't. (Unless you admit that God changes his/her mind - am not an expert on Catholic theology but my guess would be that's not the most popular idea.)

waterloo what fascinates me about your post is how much a part of life abortion has been over the centuries (with different amounts of male interference, depending on the era)