Visual erotica for women

[SparklingExplosionGoldBrass]

Because the discussion on this at Ladyfest was fascinating but didn't go on long enough, I fancy continuing it here.
Soo, iirst off, why aren't there proper erotic magazines (with pictures of naked men in them) for heterosexual women?

exactly, MIlly R. I don't remember being asked about what types of images or people I find sexy. I wonder how much research goes into it at all.

sakura. on your profile it says you're not a mother. are you? i am and i post here on mumsnet about stuff including porn.

as is my right (as you so clearly stated).

why are you here?

As I said, blinks, I made it clear that I wasn't implying anything. I was stating.

I'm on here to peddle my wares

have the courage of your conviction then.

who were you referring to?

dittany

coward

All I'm saying is that there is a strong pro-porn lobby, with stakeholders who have a vested interest in making sure people think porn is A Good Thing.

Then, we have a couple of mums on mumsnet who've read a feminist book or two.

On the porn/prostitution threads, people come from Punternet and other places to heavily promote the industry.

You could argue that it's free advertising.

That's not the same as someone just having a chat about their beliefs

who? who comes from punternet?

there was a massive thread recently chocabloc full of punters, prostitutes and pimps of all people, (in the feminist topic FFS) who were from punternet.
YOu missed it? We had a ball

sorry, the relationships topic

That was a nice place to put that thread

More to the point. How is it that you didn'T bat an eyelid when I mentioned punternet?

How many mums know what punternet is

Wait a minute... Are you a stealth feminist activist?

I'm interested in where it would be Ok to start a prostitution/porn thread. While I see that the most recent one was/could be seen as inappropriate in the "relationship" forum, how much upset would there have been if it had been here, in the feminist forum?

Is there a space for the "sexually-deviant" (ie, promiscuous/non-monandrist [is that a word?]) woman?

BTw, Sakura, who were the pimps on that thread? Names, please.

Eh??? Just seen that I missed a splurge of activity here - I'll have to catch up tomorrow but, Sakura, please! You can't have read my post. I haven't ever said porn doesn't turn women on. Hrrmph!

Thanks, Blinks.

To reiterate (while it's quiet, heh) - my understnading, which happens to be fairly comprehensive, is that women respond to media-borne erotic stimuli more than men do. Every sensible study has produced findings that support our intuitive knowledge: the female human has a broader, more fluid and more readily available sexuality than the male human and than the females of most other species. We don't need in-your-face pornography to get aroused.

We do seem to prefer subtler varieties of erotica - we like storylines, a bit of relationship, etcetera. My thesis is that we prefer it because of our conditioning, NOT because that's the way we are. We have an incredible ability to get turned on at practically anything, but we don't acknowledge it to ourselves. I do feel male-dominated societies perceive female sexuality as a threat and work to suppress it. Thus, I believe - and have seen the evidence - there is a real antipathy towards erotica meant for women.

I'm in danger of writing an actual thesis here - just deleted a dozen long paragraphs! Looking forward to reading this continued discussion :)

why, do you know them OLKN?

I've another question for SGB:

Why is it that when feminists talk about prostitutes having to disconnect their mind and body in order to do the job, you say that they're belittling women

and yet

when women (who are not getting paid) say that porn does nothing for them, all of a sudden they are the product of patriarchal oppression

you can't have it both ways.

IfGraceAsks, I liked your last post.

BUt I have another question

SOme women like porn, agreed? Some women don't. SOme aren't interested one way or another.

Are you seriously saying that women who are into porn have better sex lives than women who are ambivalent, or don't like it?

I doubt that. Very much. In fact, my instinct tells me that porn limits the imagination and imposes a circumscribed, patriarchal sexuality onto women.

Ever read the book then watched the film? That's what porn is like for me: nothing compared to what my imagination can russle up by itself. And I'm someone who does get turned on by porn.

OldLadyKnowsNothing,

YOu've lived a VERY sheltered life if you think women who are promiscuous are "sexually deviant"

Perhaps mumsnet is not the place for you. Bless.

Going back a bit, but I don't accept that coercion is the only 'valid' argument. And I don't accept the assumption that one can't object to porn without objecting to other media representations. I object to all sorts of stuff, but as this thread is about porn, I'm talking porn. We can talk about one issue without having to give our credentials for every other issue. We can also start at one point, and move to another, so start with porn and move to the wider media. Both being bad does not remove the option of focusing on why one is bad.

I am genuinely interested in this area, as the subject as it was first stated as it seems a more engaging take that the arguments I have heard thus far for why porn is good, that don't convince me as they don't engage with the reasons of why porn in bad.

But alas I'm posting and running...

Sakura: Firstly, I don't think that I ever said that about disassosiating mind and body being belittling. I don't think it's inherently a bad thing, though - don't most of ushave times in our jobs where we are gonig through the motions but thinking about something else?
Secondly, I am pefectly aware that some people are simply not very interested in porn, fair enough. I am not interested in sport, or the X Factor.

However, the study IGA referred to (about the difference between male and female arousal triggers) also shows this huge difference between what people say turns them on and what physically turns them on. Because women are hugely socialised to be The ONes WHo Are Looked at, not the ONes WHo Look, so there's this extremely pervasive myth that to sell women anything, you have to show them pictures of women, not men.

ANd TBH I do thik that people who are ragingly hostile to all depictions of naked people in a sexual context ie refuse to accept that anyone can perform in porn without being coerced or messed up in some way and that therefore it's all waful - well, those people probably do have worse sex lives than those who are open minded.

sakura yes you've nailed it! i am the chairman of punternet plc... if it weren't for the pesky kids...

get a fucking grip

so an amazonian tribeswoman, who has never come accross any porn, her lover neither, has a worse sex life than British and American women.

I find that VERY hard to believe.

I think the American obsession with porn and over-excitement over nudity, is down to its puritanical and, frankly, uptight attitudes towards sex.

Having said that, it IS and interesting feminist discussion that women and men's brains are actually very similar, more similar than society will admit. I can absolutely believe that.
The problem is, if you have an industry for women, a real, proper erotica industry, run by and for women, then you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to trying to argue shutting down the parts of the porn industry that actually do a lot of damage to women.

I think there is a big difference between having sex and performing for an audience

SOme people are exhibitionists and enjoy having sex in front of other people. But I have to return to the question: why do they ask for money if exhibitionism turns them on? WHy not just make it into a party/orgy? It's the cash transaction that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, and makes you think they wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Hardly liberated then, are they?

Sakura, are you really incapable of seeing a difference between someone who is hugely hostile to something and someone who has simply never heard of or encountered the something and therefore has no feelings about it?
Mind you, WRT your 'Amazonian tribeswoman' analogy, I don't think that there are very many, erm, developing societies or whatever the current term is for cultures that are borderline pre-industrial with no mass media, that are exactly shining examples of gender equality, so the hypothetical 'tribeswoman' might have no idea of what its like to be able to choose a sexual partner for herself or be entitled to refuse sex she doesn't fancy, so on those grounds I would say that many UK/US women do have better sex lives.

WHy shouldn't people be paid for doing something that they also enjoy and do on other occasions for the enjoyment of it? A professional musician or dancer may play or dance for pleasure, or among friends, but that doesn't mean that s/he is going to play for free on every occasion if his/her performance skills are generally appreciated enough by other people for them to want to offer money.

"if you have an industry for women, a real, proper erotica industry, run by and for women, then you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to trying to argue shutting down the parts of the porn industry that actually do a lot of damage to women."

I completely and utterly disagree with this. THe more 'good' porn you have, the less the majority of people, male and female, will want the unethically produced stuff, and the wider the range of sexual behaviours and sexual choices that are depicted and discussed, the greater freedom (from bullshit heteromonogamous conformity and sexism and heterosexism and witless superstition) will follow.