Alice Schwarzer- heterosexual sex involves inevitable subjugation of women

[winnybella]

There was an article in The Guardian about a spat between her and a government minister

here

It doesn't really say much about her (apparently she's a famous German feminist)

I was wondering if anyone here (Dittany?) would know what was she talking about?

DP read it and said 'Hasn't she heard about women being on top?', but I would like to know what did she mean by that.

TIA

And what goes on in Africa is what went on here pre 1930s and free availability of contraception. Other countries are far behind us in lots of ways. I don't think it is a fair comparison - though fine to say that they should share our opportunities.

GWTMH - yes, I have considered changing it but I had the name; someone shortened it to BDSM and then I had to look up what it meant as I'd never heard the term before MN. Obviously, I knew what it was once I knew what it stood for but...

Anyway, that's exactly what I meant. I also prefer penetrative to a lot of fiddling around (to be blunt) and now I'm wondering if this colours our attitude to the whole argument? I don't feel like penetrative sex is about male pleasure; I feel like it's about my own. Perhaps that makes us look at things in a different way?

Ao when I had sex with my husband, and conceived my doted upon daughter, in a mutually enjoyable experience, I was taken advantage of in some way?

But the same is also true of domestic violence: until quite recently (relatively) it was a man's business what he did with his wife and not the police's place to interfere.

What I mean is, the problem is that women had no value - I don't think the fact that one route towards mistreating a person is via sexual violence means that all sex is, at heart, and act of violence and subjugation.

Dittany, have you ever actually had sex with a man? I am 42 years old and slept with plenty of them. I know that rape happens and that women in Africa don;t have access to contraception and that is not a good thing, but you see sex with men an EVIL thing. And it is not. It really is NOT in most cases.

if we're talking in the context or our society though, isn't the point that we're using past tense words and so the assumption shouldn't be that men and women in Britain today think that all penetrative ex is an act of rape?

I of course don't think this is the reason to ignore women all over the world not protected by the law within their marriages or otherwise. But I do think this is about partiarchal conditioning from the dawn of time because men 'invented' culture and society, I'm not sure it's a biological issue

I think the subjugation bit is to do with the fact that women are the ones who get impregnated.

I don't think rape and impregnation are related, except in times of war.

Is being penetrated more worrisome than penetrating someone then?

There are aspects of submission in either role.

It is only the use of other force and abuse of one's physical strength that makes penetration the more dominant act I feel. If no other force or restraint is used then both parties commit to taking an equal physical and emotional risk when entering one part of one's body into another of the other's.

If a man wear a condom and leaves nothing behind then I think the act is fairly equal.

There are aspects of submission in either role.

Don't you find its the bloke who gets left knackered and shrunken

You can't talk about intercourse without talking about rape

yes you can. Rape is abnormal, a perversion of a natural and on the whole rather lovely thing. You might as well say you can't talk about the joys of a wood fire without talking about arson.

But surely this is all way more complex than the physical aspects of intercourse?

As is the same with rape...it isn't just about whether force was used or whether verbal consent was uttered, there are psychological/emotional aspects to be considered too.

I think mens' role is all too often the focus, and women's role is too often ignored. For every woman that stands up and ceases to tolerate the status quo there are another 20 who seek comfort in the man-pleasing subserviance to which they are used; happy to mock the bra-less, trouser wearing, lesbian-a-like they perceive before them.

It may not feel great, or equal or right but what has gone before is our place of familarity as women and as men. Many of us don't give men any reason to question the situation because we keep on accepting it and sneering at those who are prepared to.

Maybe I missed your point dittany, but I don't understand why the onus for change is upon men first. It's not like us women are all singing from the same hymn book is it?

I've been reading it, have to go to bed, will continue tomorrow. Very interesting and I find myself agreeing more often than I thought I would.

Yes I will take a look, thank you.

But do you see what I mean about the lack of female solidarity? I wouldn't expect any other group or individual to take me and my peers or colleagues seriously if we weren't all pulling together.

Men are just such a group and women are my 'peers', why would they take any notice of our thoughts and ideas whilst we as a group are not in agreement?

I accept men cannot use this as an excuse for abuse of situations where they stand to profit financially, emotionally, sexually, etc. it they can succeed in oppressing women, but I rather feel that such opportunity seizing is human nature along with the ability to exploit any given situation to our maximum advantage whether we are male or female.

Tired now and lessening in coherence, sorry.

but if i have willing sexual intercourse, they way my body is designed, i get pleasure from it. so when i consent to intercourse, the act by which i feel pleasure, why am i being subjugated?

Men are not a group though, there are whole religions and wars and genocides and political parties to prove how much they don't agree with each other. There are over three billion of us - it's awfully hard to pull together.

Actually, women fucking men up the bum for mutual pleasure is more common than some of you appear to think. Sex is certainly more than just penis-in-vagina fucking (and the fact that the patriarchal model is always all about penis-in-vagina fucking and the fetishization of reproductive sex, and that this is dumb, was the only useful thing I ever got from reading Sheila Jeffries).
THis doesn't mean that penis-in-vagina fucking is inherently bad. It can be physically pleasurable for women. It can be psychologically pleasurable when it's TTC sex, too.

What I got from that article, was that a politician decided to attack a feminist critic for no obvious reason, dredging up ideas tossed around in the 1970s in order to paint the woman (and feminism) today as extremist. This is an interesting debate, but I think this politician has deliberately picked one thing that sounds pretty ridiculous/outrageous out of context, in order to bash women seeking equal rights.

Rape isn't that abnormal if you mean it doesn't happen very often

I didn't mean that though. Unfortunately its not uncommon but it is abnormal. It is not something normal blokes normally do.

That sex can involve the subjugation of women simply does not mean that this is inevitable .