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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why did so many of us encounter sexism at university?

98 replies

LittleRedPumpkin · 31/10/2010 11:52

Right, hope it's ok to start a thread on this - it's partly because I am thinking about it for myself, and partly the topic has come up on at least two threads recently so I thought it'd be nice to have a discussion about it.

Do you think universities are still fundamentally sexist? If so, why? Is there really something about higher education that men are better suited to (an argument I've heard a lot)?

Was your experience of women supervisors better or worse?

I'll get the ball rolling: I have had male supervisors, but now I'm in a department mostly made up of women. I've noticed that here, there is a far stronger attitude of co-operation and partnership between the academics and their students - PhDs, MAs and undergraduates. For example, if my own supervisor isn't an expert on a chapter I want to write, she sends me to have a supervision with someone else, who is more expert. There's no sense of me being 'their' student or one course being 'their course' to run. This is very different from the male-dominated university I went to before, so I wondered how typical it was.

What's your view on women at university?

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madwomanintheattic · 31/10/2010 17:47

uni was one of the least sexist experiences i've had tbh. had good and bad male and female supervisors in pretty equal measure.

andrea o'reilly is doing/ has done lots of stuff on women in academia. study ongoing now is 'mothers in academia' i believe, but don't think the uk is included - off the top of my head, canada, oz, couple of others...?

read an interesting book last year or so, called something like 'whose degree is it?' not gender-based as such, but discussing state of play between hierarchy/ lecturers, students etc, and increasing tensions despite essentially buying your degree - value for money in terms of teaching time/ updates to subjects/ feedback etc.

ISNT · 31/10/2010 17:47

Yesssss.... but.... while I applaud ghostie on her holistic approach, it seems to me that women are often expected to take on these nurturing roles, which is a very tiring and time consuming thing, on top of their ordinary work. While the men can just do the ordinary work, no-one expects extras in the way of nurturing, so they end up with much less stress IYSWIM.

Thinking here about female GPs and how they have a very high suicide rate, and the thinking is that when people see male GPs they say what's wrong and get some treatment, in and out job done, while with female GPs they expect a whole load of chat and counselling on top. Which many female GPs give, because they are women and that's what women do IYSWIM. Result = loads more work and stress, for the same job. So this business about women always having to be doing more and better and harder just to keep up.

It's a general point, really, that came to mind, absolutely what ghostie is doing is great and in no way saying that she shouldn't or anything like that. Hope what I am getting at comes across OK Confused

LittleRedPumpkin · 31/10/2010 17:51

I see what you're saying ISNT and the negatives did occur to me too. But on the other hand, what ghostie is doing could also set up a good chain effect where academia becomes a more nurturing place for everyone - and people who want to be discriminatory because it makes them feel powerful, won't feel at home in that sort of environment.

I hope.

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LittleRedPumpkin · 31/10/2010 17:52

Btw, I didn't know that about female GPs and suicide. That's both shocking and sad - esp. since women quite often seem to be encouraged towards being GPs!

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Heartsease · 31/10/2010 17:55

I feel that my institution is horribly sexist in all kinds of ways that most of the men working there aren't even aware of, though they think they're right on. I am actually too depressed right now to write it all down, and in any case am trying to keep my eyes open to write a funding application.

But I do share (and applaud!) Notevenaghostie's sentiments. I always ask my students how they respond to the word 'feminist', and their responses are often alarming. After that though, they really are open to talking about it, and I send them links to Fawcett etc. and they see things their lives have just not prompted them to notice before. A lot of the women have also said that it makes a real difference to them to have a female supervisor. My own was eminently supportive, and with the other people she trained up I have a truly collaborative research mindset, where in some other people I see only individualistic competition.

I ran a voluntary seminar using a piece of feminist writing a few weeks ago, for first years. The debate was a real eye-opener, and at the end some of them said 'that should be compulsory for everyone!'. I agree, but until that's the case, I am doing the best I can, and I think it's worth it.

huddspur · 31/10/2010 17:56

I know someone doing geography at university at the moment and half a module was on feminist geography with a male lecturer btw.

dittany · 31/10/2010 17:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Heartsease · 31/10/2010 17:59

X-posted ISNT, I agree with you this is one of the invidious aspects of institutional sexism. I have lots of examples but have decided they are all a bit too specific to write here.

Rosettaroo · 31/10/2010 17:59

I work in an academic dept at a red brick university, one of my male academic colleagues thought it would be hilarious to slap me across the arse with a weighty textbook on the european market. He regretted it after

Hardly any of the senior lecturing staff are women.They seem to take on more work to get recognition as well.

Jazzicatz · 31/10/2010 18:05

Loads of the male academics at my old instituion shagged the female students as well. One recently only took dissertation students who had the biggest tits. I had to sit through a meeting whilst this was discussed!

huddspur · 31/10/2010 18:13

Interesting article that might shock:
www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2009/sep/23/kealey-female-students-perk

notevenaghostie · 31/10/2010 18:19

I just lost my post (must copy and paste I guess!) - will try and remember my train of thought.

Firstly, I am lucky to have a manager who values what I do. He doesn't get it - his wife went away for 4 days so he had to take them as holiday because, of course, you can't work, care for a child and sustain the home, can you......??!!!!! Of course I do it every day and he tentatively ventured towards that realisation, which is more than many people get. But he has empathy that enables him to see something of what I do - and be positive about it.

I also think - I can live with myself. It's going to be a compromise - and I have made one I can live with. It's not wrong to fly high and compromise, or work-wise not to fly at all - what is important is that you raise your children with a compromise you can live with.

I work full time as I am totally on my own.
I will teach my DD all I know from my perspective. If she is a SAHM with a higly paid OH - I hope I will unconditionally love and support her despite the massive differences.

LittleRedPumpkin · 31/10/2010 18:34

hudd - yeah, that's a bit depressing but better than nothing. Nice that it's a male lecturer imo.

Can you re-do your link please, it's gone wrong? Smile

dittany - it's nice also when women academics get to the male undergrads before that.

ros - Oh.my. What can we say? Shock

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huddspur · 31/10/2010 18:39

littlered I suppose it depends on the subject, I don't see how you get feminism or womens rights in to maths for example, some subjects lend themselves to it others don't.

Try this link from the telegraph instead:

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/6219449/Vice-chancellor-female-students-are-a-perk.html

Heartsease · 31/10/2010 18:40

To go back to your initial question LRP, as to why things should be thus, I think that there is a marked narcissistic tendency in many academics, who are drawn towards promoting people who remind them of themselves or fit their model of what an intelligent person is like. That has been an overwhelmingly masculine form for many generations. I don't like the idea that women must nurture women because men will promote men, but at the moment there is a sense that this is one way to keep going.

Heartsease · 31/10/2010 18:41

Huddspur's original link

AliGrylls · 31/10/2010 18:42

This is an issue I had never thought of until now. At the university I went to it was definitely not sexist at all. Equal number of male to female lecturers / researchers.

The male lecturers definitely did things differently to female lecturers but that is because they are men and men are actually different to women and think differently. The OP even says it - women work to cooperate whereas men are more competitive. These things on their own make women more suited to different jobs / careers. Men could argue it is sexist they don't do as well in the caring profession.

Would it also be true that universities are like all institutions of work? A man doesn't take maternity leave and doesn't expect a choice in the matter to work full / part time. These two things on their own will affect how quickly a person progresses through an organisation. It is much harder to progress if you are taking time out for maternity leave because you are not physically there to keep your skills up and it is the same deal with working part time.

dittany · 31/10/2010 18:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AdelaofBlois · 31/10/2010 18:46

I've come to this having been inspired by two of the main posters here on another thread. Series of rather rambling 'male lecturer' comments follow.

I have to say I find universities oppressively sexist in many ways. At one level, the student body is given freedom to act as it wishes, and in enclosed environments makes the sexism of everyday life more extreme. There is a culture of misogyny and violence (verbal and physical) which goes much deeper than I feel it did when i was an undergrad a decade ago. A large number of women seem to have internalised these messages: I deal with unexpected pregnancies which to me seem like rape (too drunk to consent) but to the women struggling seem like just part of student life; a female Entertainments officer ran a campaign promising 'Nites as big as my titz', a women's officer (ffs) turned up for Hustings on her way to a vicars and tarts party (she wasn't clerically garbed) and won on a promise of chocolate cake. There is a huge 'irony' excuse which allows men to do very much as they please, silences debate, and staff are caught in a real bind trying to police student space outside of academic contact. So we try and pick up the pieces and go on. But amongst it all are some dedicated feminists and their male allies who tear down the posters advertising using semi-naked women, fight, and allow some to experience and explore feminism and feminist ideas for the first time. It feels looking down from the ivory (well crumbling brickwork) tower that they're perpetually outnumbered, but they are there.

Academic departments vary, but the most striking aspect of it to me (in contrast to my older female colleagues) is how casual sexism has become, even as it has become less acceptable or important professionally. The (male) lecturer shagging (female) student is part of folklore and accepted in a way gay relationships or female lecturer-male student relationships are not. I've heard respected colleagues fuming at maternity cover and claiming it means women shouldn't be employed, and walked out of 'manly' chats about how it doesn't matter if fit female students are thick because you can always think of your cock in their mouth when they're speaking. But, strangely, I've seen the same colleagues demand all-women shortlists for jobs, and go to the wall for talented female students they feel are being picked on by others.

And then there's the structure of the profession. Any academic (myself included) with a working partner is going to get clobbered when they become a parent (we work so flexibly it's always going to be us looking after them if child care fails or is too expensive, and losing nine months of research to leave can cripple careers) and will need to be a parent fairly early in their career unless they have a much younger partner. And that seems to hit women hardest, even though you would hope it wouldn't. To say nothing of the fact that one female colleague has no pictures of her family on the wall for fear of looking unprofessional, while one male colleague rings up to cancel a lecture because he's covered in shit from changing a nappy (badly, one assumes, I've never managed to achieve shit coverage so extensive I needed deep cleansing). But then there are sympathetic colleagues who respond, and they're of both sexes, because we appreciate that the renewal of our fields, the things that make us work long hours for relatively low pay, can only take place if we are open to the brilliance of women such as Jazzicatz and Little Red Pumpkin.

Sorry this is turning into The History Man. Ultimately, I think universities are horribly sexist, but then so is life (and neither should be stood for). But they are also an environment where in contrast to being expected to look just slutty enough you can turn up for work (well, lectures) in PJs and Ug boots; read what you like, find a sympathetic ear which transcends generational and student-lecturer divides, and have the time to explore your politics and activism. They are a deep well of targetted anger and intellectual resource which can be drawn on to change the world in some way. And I'll be standing on the sidelines cheering yet another generation of women who discover that they are not alone in being sick and tired of being sick and tired, that there are deep intellectual, historical and moral roots for all they do and all they wish, and that they can change the world in small and huge ways.

Blimey, wish there was an RSI face. Wish it answered the question.

dittany · 31/10/2010 18:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

drivingmisscrazy · 31/10/2010 18:48

hmm. Went to an all female college as a student although the larger context was full of bright young men (more on this anon...)

I now teach in a university and a couple of things strike me that haven't been mentioned so far. One is the concentration of women in junior posts (i.e. men desert a profession as its status declines); the other is the degree of commitment to teaching (often to the detriment of research) exhibited by many female academics. This was brought home to me in shocking fashion when I was an appraiser for some younger members of staff - they really hadn't thought seriously about themselves in terms of research careers (despite being very very good) and identified (I would say over-identified) themselves primarily as teachers (i.e. in a nurturing role). I don't denigrate this, but teaching is increasingly the poor relation and it does not translate into promotions, status, etc.

Also I have noticed a tendency for male colleagues' research output to rise exponentially when they have children, not least because ime they continually say things like 'oh I can't possibly do

LittleRedPumpkin · 31/10/2010 18:52

Ali, sorry, that wasn't what I intended to say at all! I wasn't trying to illustrate a general truism, just saying how I found the department I'm in compares with the one I was in before.

dittany - sorry. I meant, I like it when you come across a male student who's not been sucked into the sexist attitudes. I'm thinking of people I know here, whom the sexist male supervisors would like to supervise (because they're bright), but don't get the chance. That is quite nice to see.

heart - good point. And some women academics seem to think because it was hard for them, they'll make it hard for you.

hudd - off to look at your link. I don't quite understand what you're getting at? You mentioned feminist geography only gets a half module - you're saying that's bad, yes? And the point about maths is separate?

If so, then yes, I agree, but you don't have to teach feminism to be feminist. I come from a discipline where feminism is an important methodology, as it happens. But sexism is still hugely prevalent in the way some academics treat their students and peers.

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LittleRedPumpkin · 31/10/2010 18:53

Oh, ew, I remember that article. And there was a really disappointing follow-up by Mary Beard in the Times saying (IIRC) more or less 'well, yes, he sounds a bit sexist but oooh, I do find pedagogy sexy!'.

Hmm
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huddspur · 31/10/2010 18:54

No I think its good that feminist geography gets half a module I was talking that it will vary from degree subject whether feminism can be incorporated into the degree subject.

LittleRedPumpkin · 31/10/2010 18:56

adela, that is eye-opening, if a mixture of depressing and encouraging. I hadn't (oddly), thought much about the tits 'n' slapper culture lately as it seems to be such an undergraduate thing and (unlike you), I can tuck myself away from all that. But good point.

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