Please tell me this is a windup

[Theresaholeinyourmind]

Hi all,
Newbie here, lurking for a few weeks now and learning a lot. I haven't felt the need to post before but I just read an article in the Telegraph today about compulsive veil wearing in some schools
and I am beyond disturbed. Apologies for lack of link, can't work out how to do it.
Let me point out that I hate the idea of laws on what you can wear and not wear, was sort of against a UK burka ban as I thought it ultimately wouldn't help the people involved. But this, if true, is a bit much to me. Comments?

Independent religious schools often make a big thing about girls' sexual purity, apparent through specific, strictly enforced uniforms. Parents see it as a big selling point.

However, if you are a girl who attends such a school you soon realise that being marked out by your designed-to-be-sexless uniform as opposed to other people in the community in normal clothes, gives you a particular sexual cache. You are viewed in a particularly pervy, fetishistic thing, and it is very uncomfortable to be th3e subject of.

thanks, am V interested.
IN Japan they have the uniform, even in kindergarten. DD's summer uniform is maroon sports shorts and a issued white T shirt with 2 maroon stripes. BOys and girls are identical. I like it because I don'T have to worry about what she's wearing, and she's in shorts so can move around easily.
But I can see how it could all be about conforming...

vezzie come to think of it now, school uniforms are totally fetishized in Japan

Thank you!

Firstly, I completely agree with you that people shouldn't be respected just because of their age. I used to think they should. BUt as I age myself, I don't understand why young people should have to soothe the egos of their elders. If anything, older people should simply look out for younger people.

Bullying- massive problem in Japan, worse than the UK, I would say. Group conformity is hugely important. And I agree with you that children can spot cheap clothes a mile off. ALso, when I was in school there were lots of hidden rules amongs us kids about how you should wear your uniform. Anyone who didn't recognize them were "uncool"

But I just remembered that the elementary school here doesn't require a uniform, so that's good.

CHildren are treated better in Japan, on the whole. They are refered to as hito [person] from birth, whereas we only refer to adults as person i.e "that person over there"

What do you think about my DD'S case, are there any benefits to wearing an identical uniform to boys?

Thanks, food for thought

yes, it does.. Children are kept ignorant and as "children" then when they're given the responsibility of adulthood as a teenager, many go off the rails. I should imagine in a rainforest tribe the transition to adulthood would be much more seamless and gradual

and it also has claig's Big Brother connotations too, doesn't it. Schools are the tentacles of the state, type thing.

DD'S kindergarten hate me. I had a note in her little book to me saying "you must try harder" because I never remember all the piddling little extra things they require: flask, lunchbox, toothbrush, cup, wet towel in a plastic bag (!) for after sports, change of clothes, inside slippers...

I'm a creative type and I never did my homework in school, always forgot things and the teachers hated me then as well... I'm like the state's worst enemy

StewieGriffinsMum - I hope you don't mind me doing this, but I enjoyed reading your post on school uniforms so much that I have printed it out and given to my friend's daughter to help her with her homework assignment: Why was school uniform introduced? Thanks.

at the fact they didn't get it, SGM

I loved uni, though. I came into my own there. It's not regimented like school. Totally different. I hear it's starting to change though

SGM - thanks for that! Really interesting.

I would be inclined to agree with every word were it not for the fact that I was desperately, pathetically grateful for school uniform when I went to school (even despite the perviness). Tesco jeans sound fine, but we wouldn?t have got those (not that supermarkets did clothes in those days) ? if it wasn?t for a strict and specific school uniform I don?t think we would have been wearing things to school that had even come from actual shops (I am terrified at the thought of what would have happened to me if I had turned up in what I used to skulk around in at weekends, hoping I wouldn?t bump into anyone).

Do you really think that it is even theoretically possible to stop children being nasty to each other about things like clothes? (hopeful)

(Yes, despite the school uniform it was still obvious from my clothes that I came from a Weird family, but less: blessedly, survival-enablingly, less)

wow.

Sorry, the wow was to the newspapaer article.

yy to SGM

Just to get back to the veils as uniform, this might backfire. (One can only hope!)

I hated my uniform at school and couldn't wait to get home and change out of it. Since then, I have never worn grey skirts or blue jumpers. Come to think of it, I haven't worn skirts at all since then, except once, on my wedding day, when I wore a dress specially made by my mum and granny as it meant so much to them.

Perhaps some of these girls will be like me, and hate it, especially as it's not about choice, they are forced to wear it, and so reject it later on.

SGM - that was a fantastic post about why you disagree with uniform. I've just saved it on my desktop for future reference.

Fantastic post, SGM.

I would love to get to the bottom of the rampant bullying culture in the UK; I feel my DCs have been spoiled somehow and have led a very sheltered life altogether in the US. It really is possible to stop children being nasty to each other.

I think I would disagree with you wrt the perception of Catholic schoolgirls in the US (this would be high school age girls) as slags; I think the madonna/whore complex of the wider society is involved in how they are perceived. But the naughty schoolgirl thing is far less in evidence in the US than elsewhere.

Apart from the very cogent and relevant points raised about uniforms, may I add that British school uniforms are chuckled at by a lot of Americans because of the sheer fussiness of them the ties, the blazers, the school crests, the beanies (maybe this is more stereotype than reality, and ignores the fact that baseball hats are de rigeur for a lot of Americans). Even in schools where uniforms are worn (Catholic elementary and inner city public elementary), they tend to be simple affairs in my experience, with heavy-duty polyester pinafores and skirts plus simple polo shirts for girls, and same fabric trousers for boys, same casual type shirts the skirts and pinnies wash in the machine and drip dry overnight, don't require ironing, trousers just need folding after coming out of the dryer.

SGM,

A great post! It is clear that kids are taught to 'conform' through clothes. Many believe this is a good think. However, I do not see any teachers wearing uniforms and almost every reason given to justify uniforms would require teachers to wear one too.

It clearly speaks volumes about the scope of 'freedom of expression' allowed to children. They are not allowed to have an opinion on how they would like to be dressed, every day for years. Would they choose to wear a uniform? If yes, would it be blue/grey?

And it is also interesting that this issue is only sensitive when Muslim communities are involved, but as it has been said before, other religious communities have been imposing very similar policies without problems.

On the other hand I have also watched with interest boys being forced to enter school with hoods while veiled girls were acceptable. Fear makes us all take very irrational approaches to the world. And then we try to justify rationally those options.

I meant 'without hoods'

SGM, do you think that children and teenagers are demonised more now than they used to be?
I don't remember being "demonised" exactly - nobody seemed to be afraid of us or think we were evil. We (at my girls' school) were more despised - herded around like cattle, not asked opinions, preferences or feelings were considered to be bad behaviour. But boys, maybe it's different for them.
How do you think things have changed over time?