"Does your hubby help you with your baby, then?"

[blackcurrants]

"No," I said with a big smile, "he does half of the caring for OUR baby."
The hairdresser, completely oblivious, said "Oh that's nice. So many men don't, you know."
"Yeah," I muttered as darkly as one can in one of those shiny robe-thingies, "but none of them would have survived marriage to me."

I don't think she got my steely insistence that DH doesn't "help" with DS, he bloody well cares for him. ARGH! I'm only 10 weeks into this motherhood lark and I've spent most of it resisting the 19-bloody-50's!

But I did tip well. She maintains my Feminist-Approved-Sensible-Hair and cuts it in 30 minutes. Can't afford to piss her off...

I remember having a blazing row with my DM a few weeks before dh and I got married because she said that once we got married he would expect me to "run the home" ie he would stop looking after ds so much 'for me' , and I would do all the cooking and cleaning etc. Well, we've been married 10 years now and he still seems happy with being an equal partner in all things. So ner.

DH changed nappies cheerfully for DS1.

By the time DS2 came along he clearly felt he had demonstrated his nappy-changing new man credentials and was more tempted to "look after" DS1 while I dealt with DS2....

What gets me is the people saying every now and again "who's looking after the kids while you're running?" and being astonished when I tell them it is the kids' father

Ner indeed Daisy

heels are stupid. There's a whole chapter in Beauty and Misogyny about them and how they yet another way of signalling difference and deference.
I have to say that deferent seems to capture the way a woman in heels looks to me far better than empowered.

'
DH and I made a deal: I'd gestate the baby, and he'd take care of me while I did that (and not complain about the farting).

Then we made another deal: I'd give birth, and he'd take even BETTER care of me while I did that, and while I recovered.

The third and final deal is still in process: I'm breastfeeding, and he changes every single nappy while he's home, assembles DS's bottles and bag for nursery, and does most of the laundry.

What this final deal works out to is that we both have about equal amounts of leisure time (at present, nearly none! It does get easier, right?!) - once we've got through our day and got DS to sleep, we both have about 20 minutes to ourself. Fair enough - we're both working, and we have a 2 month old baby. But what this deal works out to in the eyes of my mum is that DH is a saint, and in the eyes of my sister that I am a horrible baby-hating, husband-degrading harpy.'

That sounds like the sort of unofficial deal DH and I have. I tell him he is fab and thank him for doing a great job and he does the same to me.

However, I remember with DD1, one day my mum sent DH £20 worth of amazon vouchers for being 'such a good dad'

What did you spend your vouchers on, Bumper?

My cousin has just had a baby - one of those standard models which feeds all night. I got an email from my mum the other day detailing how tired my cousin's DH must be .

I wrote back to my mum saying 'but cousin is breastfeeding - she's the one who's knackered from doing all the night feeds.

Mum wrote back saying 'yes I know but cousin's DH is working'. Right, mum, get you now - not.

Yeah, exactly

I officially award LeninGrad the medal of honour in the Order of The Bloody Knackered, for services to demanding young critters. Gods bless all who sail in her!

and Bumper yes - thanking is so important - it makes me (and him, i hope) feel appreciated, which we definitely need at this stage! The key part is that I'm not thanking him for doing the washing for ME, I'm thanking him for doing the washing for us. IYSWIM... Ditto when he thanks me for dinner or something. Right now we're just keeping each other's heads above water, and hoping at some point our DS decides that sleep is actually pretty great.

(Member of the Order of The Bloody Knackered and the SMF Cabal - so many meetings to go to in one week, it's so tiring.)

My husband took 3 months off work when our daughter was born whilst I went to uni.I went back after 10 days. He was up for every night feed and did nappies and cared for her on his own after 6 days.

Nobody ever commented. I dont think anyone even noticed tbh. Its not that big a deal really and no one acted like he was amazing or impressive. He used to come to uni and feed her in the canteen whilst I did my lessons.

No one ever made a big deal out of it but here it is a working class area and all the dads are out with their kids in buggies cause most work on different shifts to the mum.

sunny - that's a good point. Now you say that, I think class has a lot to do with it, but in my selective blindness I hadn't got my head there.

I think a lot on this board has tbh. Thats why I dont see a lot of the problems on here but no one can relate to my experiences of being in a young working class family in modern society. I think when a person marries a affluent, well paid man in a career job he acts different and expects a woman to be a certain way however I find nowadays the majority of the working class ones dont.

Unless they are the type to have already left the mum or who arent interested in the child which obviously they are many of those. The ones that do stick around seem to not be that interested in work so enjoy their time with the kids more ime.

It is also more likely that one will stay at home if you are more affluent so that brings its own dynamic. I work in a nursery in a deprived area and many days the dads pick up the kids, drop them off and are just as frequently in the setting as the mums. You also see loads of men (say 18 - 35ish) in our town out with buggies in the day often in big groups of young men all with buggies and no women around.

I live by the seaside and so a lot of the work is seasonal or shift work so that might also contribute to the way things are.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. MN is a very middle class type of place, I live in a very middle class type of place, too - and am a very middle-class type of person with all the associated "oh, surely my experience is the only experience going?" type associations. It's something I'm trying to improve on, but as with all privilege, it's hard to give up.

The class thing is slightly different here (in USA) but as I observe it, the working-class dads are doing one of the two roles you describe. Perhaps it's more my middle-class family/friend expectation that DH won't be so involved which shocks me.

Its ok. I think I got myself into a bit of bother on the original cognitive dissonance thread as people were saying the majority of men lived in that way and I went off on one and said that not all men are priviledged. I have now calmed down though

Everyone thinks their experiences are the way things are I think as thats how people try and make sense of the world I suppose.

I just want to let you know there are many men that do a lot with their kids, just like your husband. In my eyes I think it is brilliant as the more close attachments they form the more rounded they will be as people. Enjoy your new baby and your sister probably doesnt really mean that she is probably just a bit jealous that your husband helps so much.

Also, without attacking anyone's family setup, if one parent is away for about 71% of the time (5 days out of 7) and around for about 29% of the time, yet have changed only 50 nappies in 2.5 years that implies that either (a) only about 175 nappies have been used in that 2.5 years or (b) there has been a choice involved. It doesn't mean that it's a bad choice, or a wrong choice, but there has been a choice.

I remember being in a Greek restaurant when DS was 2 and DH took him off to change his nappy. The waitress and one of the chefs had an animated discussion in Greek, and when she passed our table she said to me "He says that in Greece such a thing would not happen. [pause] I tell him that is why I am no longer living in Greece..."

(Disclaimer: have no idea whether this is an accurate stereotype; it wasn't mine. But I liked her attitude)

I get frustrated when I work late (am a committee clerk) and when people say 'but who's got your little girl?' they look amazed when I say 'erm my husband as in her father' - what's the big deal about it? He is perfectly capable of giving her tea, dancing to the 'we did it dance'(dora) and putting her to bed.

He feels the same way - why should he get big whoopie do for just taking half the responsibility of raising our child?

sigh. i get comments like the op received too.

also i have recently become friends with a stay at home dad - we do some of the same baby classes together etc. he is a lovely bloke, totally comfortable in his role (his wife works full time and is the breadwinner - they have no plans to change the arrangement) and does really well with his ds (not that i think it is more challenging for a dad than a mum - i just mean he is a great parent iyswiw)

this poor guy gets it in the neck CONSTANTLY from his family/society at large because they are all so uncomfortable with the gender reversal and is bombarded with comments like 'well if you REALLY want to be a great dad, do your ds a favour and GET A JOB!'.

our dc are the same age. my dh is supporting the 3 of us whilst i stay at home with my dd. funnily enough NO ONE is giving me attitude about getting job.

my point here is that sexism around parenting affects boths genders - and its shit for us all :-(

YES sungirltan, that's it exactly! Sexism makes the world shitty for parents of every gender.

This is why the patriarchy must be smashed!

[flexes feminist muscles]