Marks and Spencer support new Hooters in Bristol, #2

[sethstarkaddersmum]

I went to post on the first thread but it was full so here is a new one.

I'm reposting Jessinavalon's OP from 10th September since it explains what is going on, for anyone who is new to the issue:

'Dear all
This is my first post on here so I hope I am doing this right!

I live in Bristol and, last week, 'Hooters' was granted a licence to open in the city centre. The site is virtually opposite 3 apartment blocks, the lower floors of which are social housing and children are living in them.

What's most disappointing is that Marks and Spencer are leasing the site to 'Hooters'. They have been e-mailed by many concerned people to ask if they will reconsider leasing the building but they have just replied saying it is a "commercial decision" (as if that makes it ok!). In Sheffield, a 'Hooters' didn't even make it to application stage because the developer (Ask Pizza) realised that it would be better not to be associated with a company like 'Hooters'.

Marks and Spencer don't seem that concerned, however. Although they have signed up to the "Let Girls Be Girls" Mumsnet campaign they are not concerned about a company which sells merchandise including babygros which say "Future Hooters Girl" and "Does my butt look big in this?"

I have written to Marks and Spencer telling them that I won't be shopping in their stores again. If you feel strongly about this, please e-mail:

[email protected].

'Hooters' tries to sell itself as a family friendly restaurant but it is anything but. The Hooters in Nottingham attracts mainly stag parties and football fans. Hooters Girls take part in bikini contests and iced wet t-shirt competitions (the t-shirts are put in the freezers before the girls wear them). 'Hooters' has links to Playboy magazine....I could go on.....

I think Marks and Spencer should be shamed for facilitating this company's expansion into Bristol. They are selling women and girls down the river by leasing to this company and all just to make a "quick buck".

Thanks everyone.'

Same here, I'm afraid

With you up to "all words are made up", but it gets a bit garbled thereafter.

Misandry exists.
But it is not the equivalent of misogyny, which is what its "supporters" are attempting to suggest.
There is no female equivalent to a serial prostitute rapist and murderer, or a "female" Max Hardcore, who enjoys inflicting pain and humiliation on the opposite sex, and who gets lots of kudos from society, and lots of money for doing it. Misandry is, more often than not, a woman protesting against living under patriarchy i.e a prostitute who has been repeatedly raped by her pimp and punters mivght "not like men". That's misandry.

You said misogyny is a made up word I am just saying all words are made up, people make a word to describe a meaning.

But by saying the word is made up are you saying that 'hatred' of men does not exist?

And if you readily accept the existance of misanthropy and misogyny why would you reject the word misandry.

Sakura
I said that misandry is not part of society to the extent of misogyny, I accept that.

I'm saying "hatred of men" equals a prostitute who can't handle being raped anymore

And "hatred of women" equals "let's think of the most disgusting way to kill a woman, do it, and make lots of films about it for other misogynists to toss themselves off over"

Not equivalent, are they?

Just backtracking a bit as I've been off the post for 24 hours, but in response to Mumsnet HQ replying to their decision to keep M&S in the LGBG campaign, JessinAvalon said:

"Thanks Kate for the update from MNHQ. I understand MNHQ position.

I would still urge people to continue to let M&S know that some of us are unhappy with the decision they have taken. It will hopefully make them think more carefully about their commercial decisions in future."

I agree - we need to let M&S know that we're not going to forget about this.

Will find a quote on the origins of misandry. Apparently it's been coined fairly recently, which is why it has been "made up".
In language, generally, words are not made up, they come about through the evolution of the language. BUt misandry is different, from what I have heard. will try to get that quote for you

Saltatrix - have a look on that dadsnet thread for starters, there was a big discussion over there.

The context in which the words are used gives the clue as to why they exist.

I see misogyny used to describe:

• current and historic laws that discriminate against women outright

• fundamental religious practices that class women as second-class citizens

• people blaming victims of rape/DV for their own attacks ("asking for it" etc)

• female infanticide in China and S Asia

• violent porn

I see misandry used to describe:

• feminists who oppose those things

It is a word coined by groups of men who can't think of any other way to discredit feminists - who only wish to see misogynistic practices like those I've just listed come to an end.

All they can come up with is "you hate men". Actually no.

"While men have long enjoyed attacking ungrateful women as ?man haters,? the epithet seems more than a little bit silly when transposed onto the printed page?something demanded by the burgeoning market for so-called Men?s Studies materials. It certainly lacks the gravitas required to reflect the widespread injury and social disadvantages that many white males believe they endure on a daily basis. Thus a more scientific-sounding term was needed for ?the hatred of men? and antifeminists crafted one out of their own perverted imagination of antiquity: misandry.

Cobbled together from two generally recognizable Greek components, ?misandry? has the appearance of consequence and refinement. Words with such roots are privileged in our society. They are used by doctors and lawyers, not out of necessity, but as a matter of status: they can view their own image in that mirror of history, standing tall with the great men of the ages. The capital letters we afford to Classical Civilization is an artifact of both racism and sexism. That very same authority, unearned as it is, was harnessed in order to fashion the word misandry. As it is an unfamiliar term to most who encounter it, many automatically assume that it has sound intellectual underpinnings given our society?s expectations for such words and the biases that surround them. This is no accident."

Adonis Mirror

What about violent porn where the 'victim' is male and/or the the aggressor is female.

Well I have took part in derailing this thread so I will stop that for now, I think this is a topic for another thread.

I am on the fence about hooters, does it actually provide anything worthwhile...not really but would it do major damage not really either.

M&S shouldn't be involved in this as they are trying to create an ethical image for themselves but they are a business and they will make decisions based on the business side of things only.

I really doubt they will change their minds too many things have been confirmed the council has allowed it, hooters has already moved in and we don't know the details of the contract so not sure whether M&S could get out of it. Not to mention they have been very quiet probably just hoping it will go away. They won't issue an apology unless they were doing something legally wrong which they weren't. Businesses are very careful with saying the word 'sorry' a bit like politicians.

Like most normal people I don't like people being hurt so I can get my kicks, so if that exists, then I'm against that too. But although that particular instance may not be misogynistic, the framework of studios and the people working on it and the money they make is still built on misognyny.

But as you know, a debate on porn wasn't really the point of my post. There is a very interesting porn thread elsewhere.

All porn caters to a male market, so dominatrix porn is marketed to men. There is a miniscule market for female porn, or so I've heard, but I doubt very much it will cater to women's actual sexuality, as opposed to the patriarchally-constructed sexuality imposed upon them by porn (and places like Hooters)

Elephants FOund this quote on that Adonis sight.
"Men as a class enjoy being abused in controlled environments by women, as no power exchange takes place despite the amusing pretense: it is the women who ignore men, not hate them, who incite the patriarchy?s most dystopian fears."　[Richard Leader]

lovely sakura.

I'd hate to deprive some posters of their most dystopian fears, so i'll be ignoring. Just makes me angry that we can't even talk anymore (hums song)

Just wondering what part of this thread now relates to Hooters?

Most of it, with a short blip this am/pm.

What do you think about it?

Sethstarkaddersmum, Vbusymum and ElephantsandMiasmas - I have pm'd you all with the latest news from Bristol.

seeyouokay porn is quite relevant here beacuse it's all about distorting or obliterating women's true sexuality for profit and the benefit of men. That's the entire premise of Hooters: making money off the backs of women by marketing their canned and packaged sexuality to men

Oh, was it something I said?

I only re-posted a comment that had already been placed in the public domain by the original author. Why was this moderated?

This Sunday (10 Oct), 8pm Channel Four:

The TV programme 'Undercover Boss USA' is about the US Hooters chain. No idea what this programme is like but here is what the listing says:

"In the first episode of Undercover Boss USA, Coby Brook, president and CEO of the Hooters restaurant chain, goes on a covert mission to see what it's really like to work for his company."

Perhaps worth watching in case it gives evvidence of the cmopany's sleaziness that would help to mobilise people against it in UK?

Liz Jones agrees with you

Eleison
That program is normally very good. Will watch out for it.

Oh, that's a good article. Is Liz Jones someone we are meant to hate? I can never keep up. I've not read her before, but that piece was very much to the point. Good comment about the closure of Boots funnelling people into this work. And rather interesting about her defeated expectation of seeing Eastern European girls. Was she just wrong about the pool of potential workers in that area containing Eastern Europeans? Or could it be that part of the profile for Hooter Girls is that they be the 'all-English' remake of the 'all-American' girlbody?

IT was posted upthread, a link to a clip. IT was V interesting but it painted the boss as a good guy. I think he's a very powerful man and anything he didn't want could have been cut.
FOr exmaple a manager abused the girls, and said he did it because they were "Prima D0nnas". The Boss admonished him and said "They're not ALL PRima Donnas". I was because it implied that some girls were Primadonas (whatever that is) and in those cases it would be okay.
Also, he wasn't horrified at the abuse i.e he didn't sack him, he just told him to say sorry
SO.. it was all meant to make the boss look like a nice reasonable guy, but it kind of backfires when a feminist watches it

I posted some clips from that show a few days ago before I knew that it was to be broadcast over here.

The bits I saw were pretty ironic. The boss admonishes the franchise owner for not treating the girls with enough respect at one point. He isn't treating them with respect but I would argue that any chain that reduces women to a set of 'hooters' isn't really in a position to judge!

I thought that article by Liz Jones was very good. I normally can't stand her or the Daily Mail but I thought her article was spot on.

That was just a clip though. It will be interesting to see the whole programme, thanks for the link.

And it's made the Daily Mail!