Feminists who talk too much and do too little

[TheBossofMe]

Somewhat provocative title, but I'm feeling a bit riled.

I belong to a feminist group here - joined reasonably recently after moving to Bangkok. Before I left the UK, I also belonged to a feminist discussion/book group (started as the latter, sort of evolved into the former). In both cases, I've noticed that most members (not all, but the vast vast majority) love to sit and discuss, love to talk about what people should do, but then when a few of us try and arrange some actual doing, come up with lots of excuses as to why they can't do it themselves.

Two examples, in the UK group, we got into a long and protracted discussion about DV and its impact on women. Lot's of talk about the patriarchy, about how the system conspires to keep women down, etc etc etc. A few of us then started to build links with a local DV support group (where all we were doing was each volunteering 2-3 hours a week to help out - in my instance, I helped the fundraisers market to businesses, formulate grant applications etc, in another friend's case, she just sourced stuff from freecycle to help some of the affected families, so stuff that anyone with an internet link can do).

But when we tried to get some more of the group to help out for just an hour a week each, we go every excuse under the sun from "what can one person do?" to "there's no point just doing the little things, we need to overturn the whole system" to "I just don't have any time to spare" from women who seemed to find time to read books and discuss. OK, am being a bit unfair, because I do appreciate the fact that it can be hard to dedicate a lot of time, which is why I worked so hard to find some things that people could do from home for an hour or two a week. I was working FT at the time and still managed to find a few hours a week spare (commute time in the main) to do things, so really struggled to understand why of a group of 30-40 of us, at least 20 said they didn't have time.

Now that I'm in Thailand, I see the same thing happening. I;m fairly new to the group, so not the instigator of projects, but only 3 or 14 of us actually do anything (beyond signing a petition, which even the most apathetic group member seems not to be able to find an excuse to avoid). There are two fab projects which the group "supports" but that support seems just to be talking about how great the projects are, and ever so often having a coffee morning to fundraise. Nothing more, which is a bit rubbish, especially since only 2 of the group work and all have FT home help.

At the risk of falling into the trap of stereotyping, are we at risk of just loving the sounds of our own voices, and loving to discuss, but are so apathetic about actually doing anything that nothing is ever going to change? Are we to condemning ourselves to just whining and moaning, but being so paralysed by the potential barriers and pitfalls that we fail to do anything to improve the lives of women?

OK, that was very ranty and not entirely coherent, but rather cathartic! So, I guess the question is, does lack of action rule in general, or do I just choose my fem groups badly????

I think what you describe is a problem in all voluntary groups from the PTA to the ALF. It is also a problem in paid work - huge amounts of time is spent discussing/having meetings but not actually doing anything.

In terms of feminism, change is made up of 3 things:

1. Organised campaigns/organised helping of others.
2. Changing the way we informally help and relate to others in our ordinary lives.
3. Helping ourselves to change and be happier (I think people forget that each of us as women are the ones being harmed by sexism).

So your groups could well be achieving 2 and 3, it just isn't doing so well at 1. I think 2 and 3 are massively important though.

We need all the help we can get. Some women will have greater talent writing, some speaking and some "womening the barricades".

I think the Overton window is a very good thing to be aware of in any discussion in any aspect of life, not only feminism. Thanks to tortoiseonthehalfshell for introducing it to the Feminism section!

But is that the issue? I'm not reading that armchair activism is any lesser an activity. The OP specifically mentions things that can be done in a short period of time from home. The first I read of the distinction is when people were then defending it. When I read activism, I read it in all its guises, not just breaking the law, or doing outside things but also emailing, writing to people, petitions, funding bids etc etc.

I've not seen a difference between those types of activities. People seem reluctant to do either. The heartache that just trying to get people to share the responsibility of monitoring an email account has caused me it ridiculous.

And to reiterate, I'm not placing that at individual's doors. I am interested in why that culture/structural force/call it what you will exists.

There is an interesting book on it called women, feminism and organisation which I no longer own. I think at the heart of it is (as usual) the belief that the work women do informally in their own communities and homes for feminism is less valuable than organised activism.

I doN7t think people are reluctant to do either. THere is a proportion of women experiencing cognitive dissonance (now being discussed on another thread) and the talking part helps get those on board hence the shifting of the Overton Window.

Then you get women who already have a feminist consciousness who follow 1,2 or 3 in Milly's list.

Personally, I think we need another revolution like there was in the 60s. I think women would get on board if they could see a "goal". Right now it's one step forward two steps back. Just look at the Hooters thread. It's very disheartening when you know that your efforts are just NOT budging the patriarchy one bit. E-mails and campaigns just don'T cut it. FOr any long-lasting effects there needs to be mass demonstrations or something. Enough women need to get angry that they're not being represented in parliament to chain themselves to the gates.
So..why is there so much apathy? MAybe things just aren't that bad for many women just yet.

i'm trying to organise my own little protest in our community re childcare/ nursery (there has been a funding decision which has essentially meant that parents now pick up a huge bill and have to reclaim money later, instead of the nursery).

perfectly intelligent, rational women have morphed into fluttery, weak, do-as-you-are-told-by-the-hierarchy nonentities.

i don't even have pre-school children, but i'm livid on behalf of those that do that now can't afford the bills in advance and so can't access the childcare.

re alice's research - i was the chair of a local charity that ran after-school and holiday activities for children and youth with disabilities (and somethimes family events). there were twelve of us on the committee. 3 of us organised everything, and the other 9 came to the meetings and put on a t-shirt once a year to man a stall at a fair. all entirely voluntary, of course.

actually, what made me sad about it, was that we were essentially an unpaid local government resource meeting a gap in their services. they would call us and ask to do stuff.

i think sometimes it's hard to think you are the only ones doing anything, and then you get irritated. you sound as though you are at this stage, boss.

Sakura I love this phrase "THere is a proportion of women experiencing cognitive dissonance (now being discussed on another thread) and the talking part helps get those on board hence the shifting of the Overton Window." I think you get a prize for that one! And me as well for understanding what you mean! It's a jargon-bonanza meant in the nicest possible way, just ribbing you

i can understand the frustrations here - it happened with that website we were going to do - it kind of petered out. PLus I still haven't heard back from MN about the charity thing (maybe I should report the post again? I have chased Catherine 3 times it's been about 3 weeks and no response - what do you think?).

Anyway i think that people can do things in their everyday lives that make a difference. Things like bringing their children up aware of all this stuff, challenging casual sexism at work, talking to everyone you meet. Then there are things like choosing to work for comapnies which are feminist/political or at least female friendly. Talking on here and in RL to get people thinking.

Actually doing stuff - well how many people do it for anything? I suspect there are as many people "doing stuff" in feminism as in other areas - it's a type of personality that gets out there and gets their hands dirty - a great thing - and I guess they do stuff for whatever is closest to their hearts at that time IYSWIM.

That's what I think anyway.

I've been learning along with most people here so I know the regulars know what I'm talking about. Imagine posting that sentence 6 months ago on MN

I know it's funny isn't it.

Overton window is a great concept.

OP, I have not yet read the full thread, I just stopped at the coffee morning bit and was thinking that even if it does not raise as much money as it costs it might make more people aware of the cause, let's say if every person who comes brings a friend for example? Might not make money straight away but plants some seeds arround IYSWIM?

I was doing a lot of charity stuff pre children (Amnesty and a local fair trade group mainly) and this type of event were not sweeping the population but would bring one or two new members in with new ideas.

Sorry for long absence, had a mini-wobble(probably due to doing too much!) and decided to remove myself to the beach for a few days R&R. Back feeling miles better now.

Really interesting points here, some of which strike a chord for me. EG the point about just one or two people being affected by a small action like a coffee morning being worth it. Really good point, nicely made.

Some of the comments I feel less comfortable with, like Sakura's POV that she doesn't feel that its up to women with small children to get active, that this should be for others to do. That makes me uneasy for two reasons. One is the assumption that being a mother to small children somehow makes you more precious than other women - don't get that at all. Yes we have children to raise, but older children need their mothers too, we have parents to care for as we get older etc. The second reason is that I personally think that its just excuse-making - oh, I can't, because I'm so important in someone's life that I can't risk myself, but someone else less important will and should. Problem is, everyone thinks its someone else's job, that someone else has less to risk.

But anyway, have decided to stop worrying about it all and just get one with things, so thanks for all the encouraging words - made me feel a whole heap better!

TheBossofMe - I am a great believer in the power of living life according to your own values and not hiding that fact from those around you.

Not all social change has to be institutionalised, does it?

Bonsoir - no it doesn't, leading by example is one of the most powerful actions we can all take.

Which reminds me that I must set a better example for DD regarding many many things!

And I think that the power of groups such as the one you describe in your OP is not so much the instigation of group action, but rather as a place to sound off like-minded others to give you the strength to live your life a bit differently to those around you, if that is what your values require.