Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

But dittany if a man sees housework as womens work then wouldnt he have been like that before kids and marriage and you were just living together? I dont understand how this wouldnt have been sorted before and then your jobs just carry on after kids.

sunny,I agree with everything you say,

the language in my post was reacting to the foolish "SAHMs have got it easy" post.

Caring for children is wonderful and rewarding, but it is not easy and that's what I meant by drudgery. SOme people think any fool could do it, and that's the attitude I'm fighting. People only think that way because women do it.
MOthers make childcare appear easy because the work they're doing isn't visible. Another main point of mine was how unrewarded the work is. If you do it yourself, it is literally a labour of love, because society doesn't respect you for it, or think you're doing much at all really (see Footlong's post for example of this)

sunny, most women fall into the myth society peddles that raising children is inferior work, or that it isn't work at all (which is what society tells them). It's only after they have the baby that the reality hits them. Raising a child is a Big Job in itself, not an add-on or extra to be fitted around life or paid "real" work.

I will have to disgaree I work with kids and have kids and my life is the easiest it has ever been since I changed careers and became a mum. I am very thankful for that and like being able to have a laid back life. Childcare is enjoyable to me, of course I have small stressful moments but the vast majority of my time I feel like the luckiest person on earth to be able to do this. Its my hobby and my love and is my main interest.

I am extremely thankful to my husband for going to work full time and doing the ironing as he has a much more boring life than me. I suppose its different attitudes but say your dream job was to be on tv and then you got to do that 24 hours a day thats how I feel about having kids and looking after others kids (sorry if its sounds cheesy )

Sunny, I disagree with you about the easy part, but agree with everything else you say. I also count myself very lucky that I have the means to be with my children. NOt all women have the choice, of course.

ALso, remember that society doesn't think you're working at all (again refer to Footlong's post). LOts of people think you're sitting on the sofa eating crisps all day, and I think that attitude is wrong, and needs to change.

Sakura my job is easy there is no wasy round it. I dont have to do anything horrible like I had to in my old jobs.

There is no being sent away from home, guard duty, getting cs gassed,sleeping outside in the freezing cold (like when I was in military).

There is no rushing around or having to do 16 hour shifts over 2 bar and waitressing jobs starting at 8am and not finishing until 3am with awful customers and on your feet all day with only a couple of hours break for a fiver an hour.

I have 100s of other examples but being a mum and working with kids is the easiest by a mile

Yes,but you're comparing it to shit jobs. MOst men have got lovely cushy jobs, long boozy lunches, earning triple figures. Don'T compare being a mum to some of the worst jobs in the world. Compare it to some of the piss-easy jobs that pay lots and lots because men do them. Then you have to admit it's hard, especially in the early years.

SUnny: THe trouble is, it doesn;t always show up quite how selfish and sexist some men are, until the first baby arrives. Because up until then, the woman may not have really noticed that the relationship is All About The Man - his choice of what they eat, where they go, who they see because on one hand she's thinking, well I don;t mind, not worth having a row about it, on the other hand she's bombarded with propaganda that men are precious, valuable, hard to hold on to and that if she doesn't please him she might end up (shrieeeeeeek!) single!.
THen when there's a baby, all of a sudden the woman stops putting the man first. The baby takes priority and the man may have to to make his own dinner, iron his own shirt, not go to the pub because the new mother is exhausted and needs help with the baby tonight etc.
Even if the baby was planned and wanted by both parents, new fathers can be selfish and horrible because subconsciously they will have expected their lives not to change at all, because childcare is 'women's work'.

Sorry, I didn'T mean the jobs you did were shit. I meant they sound hard, really hard.

BUt again, they are recognized for being hard. Military is known to be a hard job. I would like to work from home to keep my hand in. I literally cannot do it with the baby around, so I put him in daycare for 2 hours, quite cheaply so I can get it done. If I'M not doing anything when he's around, why is it I have to pay for someone to take him so I can get any deskwork done at all?

I am on ratio of somewhere between 3 and 8 kids and have my own kids and it still isnt really what I would call actually stress. I get paid £6 an hour for it and think I am very lucky as that is quite decent as its fun and 20p extra an hour than I would get a lot of other jobs.

Also now minimum wage has gone up its better than before as I was only getting a fiver for much worse jobs before. I can do most things without childcare I completed my whole dissertation of 8500 words and got a 2:1 without a break from my own child. A lot of the time people dont have the choice but even when I was doing that I dont think I had it as hard as my husband as he is doing a worse job.

I do think if you are with your kids then you are the lucky one and have the easiest deal but again most men I know are doing manual work so I suppose it depends on what you are used to.

I think it's possible to enjoy something and for it to also be hard work - these things are not mutually exclusive.

If I was prime minister, you'd be on much more than 6 pound and hour.

Im not bothered really about my wage as jobs that are fun are bound to be low waged but it doesnt really matter by the time you factor in tax credits its a decent wage so I think they are a fantastic idea.

I think if you enjoy something then it isnt hard work. I often wake up and think how did I get this cushy number and I do feel sorry for my husband and most men I know as they are usually stuck doing the crappy jobs whilst the women have the good ones.

Aren't you bothered about the bankers' bonuses? that taxpayers money was given to a load of incompetents? WOuldn't that money be better spent on mothers and children? Wouldn'T that be better for society?

Nah, women have got more dangerous jobs than men (nurse is the #1 dangerous job, prostitute is pretty dangerous). WOmen also earn less for their trouble. So the men can take care of themselves

Im not that bothered really as money cant bring you happiness. As long as I have a roof over my head and do manage to have the 3 kids I want then I am happy as I am. I think that areas that dont have a lot can often be better than more affluent areas as no one is competing with each other, all my neighbours are my friends of all ages, if you need anything they are all on hand, families help out and there is a sense of community.

It doesnt matter how much money you have its your values that count. If money made you that happy then why do so many women moan about silly things on sites like this (not specifially feminism but all of mumsnet lol)

Yes,I value child-rearing and if I was a PM that would show in my policies. Society and the government values crooks and gives them taxpayers money to prove it.

Well there is always going to be corruption whether its hidden or not but its not like the low waged here are exactly third world. I still think I am very lucky to get £6 an hour for such a fun job.

With the original OP I think you should decide who does what before kids and ensure he respects you, loves you and would do anything for you before you marry him and have kids with him. If you respect yourself and know your self worth this wouldnt happen. I know women that do everything like this and its all their own fault as the men were always like this and made it obvious but they still had kids with them. Personally I have no sympathy now then moan about it as they brought it on themselves. Not all men are like this.

Then if you do both have a tired week after kids if it comes to using up all your plates and then friday eating supanoodles out of a saucepan when the kids are in bed then fuck it at least you still each have each other and love each other (we have been known to do things like this ). Its better than arguing about petty issues.

Just lurking on here, but i had to say that you sound like a very sorted and sensible woman sunny. I could do with picking up some of your attitude i think

Sunny, While you are feeling sorry for all those men, why don't you feel even more sorry for women who get paid less than men, even when they are doing the same or equivalent work!

Not that feeling sorry is going to do anything about the situation but at least you would be channelling your pity correctly.

but be careful lemon, a chipper attitude when the situation is dire could be cognititve dissonance. Not saying it is, just saying sunny should stop worrying about her husband when she's on 6 pound an hour for looking after up to eight kids. I find two difficult. I think her husband should be more worried about her and how to make her life easier after a day like that.

yosushi - I dont feel sorry for men in general just my husband and male friends as I know them and their jobs. I dont really care in teh wider sense tbh here.

No one I know gets paid less than men as here things are very much segregated in to male and female jobs. I just like the female ones better but I dont know anyone of under 30 that gets paid more than £6.80 an hour whether male or female except for when I was in the military.

Sakura - my husband does make my life easier he does all the ironing and the majority of the cooking. When we worked full time he used to iron my stuff and drop it back to me when we had been going out a week. He definitely looks after me I am very spoilt but then so is he in other ways. We compromise and we love each other and we both have hard times sometimes but we are a team and can overcome everything together there is no point in arguing about the small stuff in my eyes.

Also looking after 8 kids isnt hard I have ran birthday parties without parents for toddlers and little ones with having more than 8 to look after. I suppose I dont know how anyone could think that was hard my husband has been known to look after 5 kids for people when he has had to babysit for family and he doesnt think its a big deal either.

Also last year my husband looked after our kid and my brothers kid and my sisters 3 kids so we could go global gathering and we were gone all weekend. He wasnt even stressed about that and he was only 25.

sorry his sisters 3 kids

Thinking about this do you think that childcare seems like a bigger deal if you havent been brought up around loads of kids and have contact with loads of kids throughout your life? I know my husband doesnt find it a big deal as he is used to it so it wouldnt stress him if you said you were leaving him for the kids and going on a girlie weekend/holiday etc. He obviously has stressful moments but he doesnt think its as bad as going to work.