Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon not a psychological disorder.

A common example is the way smokers will justify smoking - not because they are loons who don't know there own mind but because humans are able to hold contradicting thoughts at the same time and psychologically reconcile the contradiction within their own experience.

I don't think women like me who accept that it 'makes sense' for them to forgo their careers in order to bring up children (and allow their partners the freedom to carry on unheeded with their careers) are mad or don't know their own minds. I think they are being influenced by society.

You can apply this concept to most stuff; wearing of high heels, ripping pubic hair out, name changing on getting married, etc.

Saying that cognitive dissonance is somehow not an integral part of feminism is akin to saying society is not male dominated - now that is mad.

Larry..that is it totally. Life is tough. and we cannot have everything.

The problem is, how do we get to recognise when the point has been reached that we have gone beyond the 'normal' life-is-tough, and into the realm of my-supposed-equal-partner-is-taking-the-piss?

Of course education is an end in itself, and an educated carer has to be better for the children they care for.

If everyone did the best they could, and was equally as respectful as each other, cognitive diss could be tackled. The problem comes when some women (myself!) morf into domestic slaves the minute they co-habit with a man. The only answer to this for me is to not live with a man ever!

This stance is fine now I have some money. And of course single mothers now get financial help.

Larry are you suggesting that patriarchy only exerts an influence on the less educated?

If so I would be interested to hear how you define patriarchy - I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

Beachcomber, that's exactly it, when DH is away, I bath DS, apart from that, our day is the same. Less cooking and washing actually of course.
I haven't been away yet. I don't think I can tbh and I think that is the most tiring aspect for me, knowing I can't go anywhere without DS.
We're getting there and hopefully we'll be able to impose on MIL, who still works and helps with other GC.

Footlong, when you talk about a historical family in which one woman had to do all that work, can you cite some refs, as any farming family who had to do all that would have been part of a community, with extended families living in the house, unlike modern nuclear families.

This is pretty much how I would define patriarchy;

"Literally ?rule by the father? but more generally it refers to a social situation where men are dominant over women in wealth, status and power. Patriarchy is associated with a set of ideas, a ?patriarchal ideology? that acts to explain and justify this dominance and attributes it to inherent natural differences between men and women."

Gettingagrip,

That was also my mothers solution since she divorced my father 25 years ago! Generally she has been happy with it but I do think she has missed out. Not all men are bad.

It is a good question to be honest about where normalcy merges into taking-the-piss and, again, it is pretty personal. For one person, making a big meal each evening is a pleasure, for another it is a chore (for example). I think, though, that an individual can make up their own mind about it.

That is where I dislike the term "cognitive dissonance" as it implies individuals cannot make up their own minds about their own lives.

wukter - certainly feels like shitwork when its 3am and I'm lying awake a) fretting and b) waiting for the next scream from DD!

I get up because its me DD screams for, and no matter how much we tried getting DH to console, she wants me. I think I'm the comforter and DH is the fun dad, IFKWIM. Its OK, though, or would be OK if I didn't also suffer from sleeplessness due to worrying. Actually, maybe its also me because I'm generally awake anyway! Plus I seem able to get by on very little sleep, always have done. Wouldn't trust myself to operate on someone, or to operate any heavy machinery, drive for a living or do anything that requires huge concentration, risk or physical labour. But I work in advertising/marketing, so no-one is going to die if I have a crap day at work. But I then end up worrying that someone will spot that I'm off the pace (I'm MD, but report into a massive global structure of CEOs, CFOs etc, so nowhere to hide!) and look to replace me.

Lenin - we're partly in this position because of redundancy for my DH - which means I worry even more that we have nowhere to hide if it all goes wrong! Part of the reason I'm in Thailand is because a few years here gets us to a position where we don't need as much money to live, and can start to make changes that allow us both to be happier than we are now(and lets face it, we don't have that much to whinge about), spend more time with DD. But part of me thinks that I should just keep on doing this until I drop or get thrown out, that its my responsibility to provide, and that I'm letting DD (not DH) down by not providing the very best for her (being here also means relatively short days and short commute so tonnes more time that in the UK with her).

God, I'm such a bloody worry-wort!

Back to the shitwork point (otherwise this is just me saying "poor me"!),when I think about it, I am probably really guilty of this. And was even guilty of it when I was the one doing the shitwork - I got up at 5/6 am to get all the chores done so that I could get past the shitwork and have some other things to occupy my time. So I mentally categorised it as not important, just something to get out of the way so I could do more important things (or fun things).

Someone also made a really good point that shitwork becomes really shit with more than one child - I think that's probably really really true. Most of the SAHMs I know who say they are happy have a singleton, most who are unhappy have more than one.

FilmBuffMum makes a very good point. There are lots of highly educated mums at home looking after children. Society could easily be organised to allow them to work from home and use their talents, as well as being able to look after chuildren. Dame Stephanie Shirley (known as Steve shirly) set up the company F International to allow mums to work in IT roles from home. With all the modern technology available, with video conferencing and broadband, it should be possible to carry out many administrative and office based jobs from home. Why hasn't there been more pressure on employers to allow for this? I think government should be offering tax incentives to companies that provide this and I think that unions should put more pressure on employers. I would like feminists to give this a high priority, as it would improve the lives of many women and families.

Beachcomber,

I cannot have a meaningful intellectual debate when you take something I believe to be debatable (in the UK in 2010) as axiomatic. I just do not accept we live in a patriarchal society here any more, sorry. However, I am interested in hearing the perspectives of feminists who disagree with me and I have subtly altered some of my views based on what they have said.

You will never listen to any point I make or alter your opinion. Fair enough. That is your prerogative. But, really, what is the point of me responding if you assume that any view I hold that you disagree with is just me trying to assert my male dominance? Are you ever going to think "maybe he has a point" or alter your views, even ever so subtly? I really don't think so.

Cognitive dissonance is not about people 'not knowing their own minds'.

It is a coping and acceptance mechanism that humans use in every walk of life.

You do it every time you drink alcohol or eat a piece of cake.

^I am not quoting anybody (if I was I would cite them). Are you not familiar with the common usage of the short hand of inverted commas in a phrase to show a poster is referring to a general idea or stereotype that that individual poster does not hold?
^

Oh good I am glad we have clarified that nobody here said what you were talking about. You were just using quotes to quote an idea that nobody had mentioned. Got it. Crystal clear. No problemo.

claig - Why just woman?

Footlong, when you talk about a historical family in which one woman had to do all that work, can you cite some refs, as any farming family who had to do all that would have been part of a community, with extended families living in the house, unlike modern nuclear families.

You want examples of people from the past where the woman didnt have an extended family that helped her?

My great grandmother, Mary Miles.

I fail to see the point of your request... but request granted.

Footlong, I agree both men and women. These green hypocrites in power tell us that they want us to stop travelling and using petrol etc. and yet they do little to facilitate home working, which is easily achievable with the use of modern technology.

claig - Fair enough then, good idea.

Larry why are you discussing cognitive dissonance with feminists on a feminist thread of a feminist board if you do not believe we live in a patriarchal society?

You know that feminists take the fact that we live in a patriarchy as a given. We don't debate the existence of male dominance.

You may not see the dominance men exert on women, and it is entirely possible that you as an individual do not ever exert this dominance yourself in your personal life over anybody, ever.

Nice though that may be, it does not allow you to dictate to me or others what we are allowed to feel as women living in what is clearly a male dominated society.

Now it is you who is implying that women do not know their own minds.

LeninGrad, hours can be flexible. There should be free state provided childcare available in every community. Society could be organised to provide for this. We pay our taxes and should get these type of services. It would all be paid back by more people participating and being productive from home.

Ok Footlong, I was trying to clarify a point, whereas you just seem to want to win one.

Agree it's not a solution for everyone, and there should be free childcare available everywhere, including at work locations. The £6 per hour wages could then be increased and could all be paid back out of the extra productivity gained by reducing hours of commuting and congestion and by releasing the full potential of millions of people.

Well quite Lenin - if male dominance no longer exists and the be all and end all of equality is being grateful for our washing machines to wash everybody else's clothes in then let's just shut up and go home. (Those of us who aren't there already in our supporting roles)

I guess I missed half the government becoming female, the world's wealth and power being equally shared, the end to domestic violence, rape and porn.

I guess I'm utterly deluded in thinking it is not as easy or acceptable for me to be a working parent as it is for my DH. (Why did I go to all that bother of setting up that business so I could work from home?)

Larry what are you going to do for childcare when you go back to work?

That's it exactly, we can't have everything.
Also, there is no such thing as a life devoid of shitwork, it may take different forms depending on circumstances. And a touch of 'grass is greener' syndrome, which id inevitable when you fulfill any role for mtok long: it turns into drudgery.

Gettingagrip, you asked how do you recognise when normal hard work has tipped into inequality - I think I made the point upthread (years ago!)that equal 'working hours' and 'pay' must be insisted on from day 1 in a domestic setting.
Work = housework, going out to work,cooking, diy, childcare, training for the future,the normal business of running a home.
Pay = disposable cash after neccessities paid for (and lenin's point about equal pension rights)
If you can do this from the start it will be easier to spot imbalances when they come up. Because they will come up from time to time, as a normal part of living in close quarters and negotiating with another person.

The trouble is, it's not easy to insist on it right from the start - I know, I've done it myself, lots of young women turn into little wifeys - out of excitement & novelty, probably- when they first cohabit. It's society driving that. For example silly ads on tv showing women washing clothes while men are boggled by the machine. And of course your own original family set up may reinforce that attitude.

If you can make that work from the start, you will recognise imbalances - it may piss you off but you won't be suffering from cognitive dissonance.