Feminism and religion: discuss

[tabouleh]

There was some interest in discussing Feminism and religion on the "intro" thread.

I think it would be very lovely if that thread is pretty much kept to intros and light hearted banter.

So I thought I would start this thread to discuss religion.

I will copy some info I quoted on the other thread which is from the "Reclaiming the F Word" book:

Apparently feminists of the second wave who worked on religion fell into four groups: religious reformists, religious revisionists, spiritual revolutionaries and secular feminists.

So which are you?

madonna you sound so like me! As you say my faith is an irrational thing. It's actually programmed into me. I cannot make myself say I'm an atheist, the compulsion (?) is too strong. But my rational mind is logical, and concludes totally different things from my programmed subconscious. Such a struggle! I'm a person at war with myself - the rest of the world won't get a look in.

And like posie I also struggle to see why a feminist would convert (even to the kind of CHristianity my parents practice)

I listened to a very interesting program about the Vatican where they were discussing some of the female statues, the name escapes me, but this woman was the mother of someone/a Saint. They had altered the statue to make it look like a man and then put it underground.

That really is the least of it Posie! When DH and I were talking to the priest before we got married, he very proudly said that in the Catholic service, women have never promised to "obey" their husbands. And I remember thinking "big whoop".

I know. And so, to be fair, did that priest. My mum is divorced. And lives with another man. She still worships at his church. He knew we had sex before we got married. I assume he knew we used contraception, and I assume my current parish priest knows the same. Hypocrisy - oh yes. A struggle as I say.

There is no divorce I think. Rather than it being a sin. Were my mother living a chaste life, she'd be OK church-wise. Officially.

Posie that's not my understanding of Liberation Theology at all - I see it as empoering the poor to break out of their poor lot and challenge the hierarchy - which is why Boff was excommunicated. It certainly is the point of Gurtierrez in his "Theology of Liberation". I loathe the anti-liberationists ho seem to want to keep the poor opressed.

Weegie, perhaps I am a little rusty. I always thought it was a way to help people accept crap in this life because of the promise of an afterlife.....I am prepared to be corrected though, correct away!!

posie I think that's just religion in general! All that 'be a servant of all' 'the meek shall inherit the earth' 'blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of heaven' the story of Lazarus the beggar, 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven' all of these things basically say 'hey it's great to be poor why don't you all stay that way'

iberation theology is the opposite,posie, empowering communities to get on the ladder adn out of poverty

Funny how once you learn the worng thing it bloody stays with you! Will read up now!!

"I don't see how a true feminist can accept the existence of religion per se. Religion can only be used to control people and has no bearing on feminist ideology. "

You really need to separate organised religion from paganism, though. I'm not a pagan...at least I didn't think I was until I read a book about it! The book said that if you believe in some sort of God that is not a higher power - maybe it's within you, or all around, connected with the earth, or whatever, but not in charge of you - then you're a pagan. That's very simplistic. But there are no rules to paganism - just that you believe in something, usually connected to nature and that you worship/respect that being. There's even quite a bit of science to back up Paganism, believe it or not! Anyway, that's not a discussion for this forum!

My point is that Paganism is not oppressive because of there being no rules; there is also often a heavy emphasis for some pagans on the presence of female deities; and the power of women. If you want a religion that fits with feminism, then paganism's going to be it!

You see, I find the idea that you have to make up some kind of imaginary friend and worship it to be fundamentally fucking ridiculous. And I simply don't understand how otherwis intelligent people fall for this.

because maybe it works. Some of their prayers may be answered. People have been at death's door and family and friends have prayed and they have recovered. Nobody knows if the prayer did it or if it would have happened anyway, but they believe the prayer did it. "Ask and you shall receive". If you don't believe, you can't ask, you are on your own, together with the doctor and the drugs, and maybe asking would have saved someone's life.

PosieParker - as has been said above, Liberation Theology isn't about demeaning people, there's a little clue in the name.

And you do with look up islamic feminism as well. It's not all about white western women.

SGB

It's about belief people want to believe in something otherwise life seems pretty damn pointless your born, go to school you work, you die. There is nothing wrong with religion in it's basic form it allows people to not feel totally alone like they have someone watching over them even in their darkest most lonely points in life.

Claig: Well of coure it doesn't work - if the person gets better it's got nothing to do with how many people talked to their imaginary friends. Either the medical treatment worked or it was a coincidence.
Sammyuni: some people want to believe in imaginary flying ducks or whatever, and I respect everyone's right to believe in whatever crap they like as long as they don't insist their silly beliefs give them rights over other people's lives. And plenty of people feel no need or desire to invent creatures/places/magic potions to believe in.

When I was more like a Christian, I was a religious reformist. I was brought up on stories of Abbess Hilda, Gladys Aylward, Edith Cavell and Queen Elizabeth as my religious models, plus an endless cycle of highly selected readings of Genesis 2 (not 1), Isiaah, Ruth, and the more inspiring bits of Paul, so I never really saw much of a problem with religion being a structural and spiritual support for women to express their independence and exercise power (in a Godly way after much prayer asking not to be given power, of course). Unfortunately they also made the pesky mistake of translating the Bible and I have never really been able to be anything other than a secular feminist since reading the rest of it.

claig, if I really thought God were counting the number of praying people round someone's bedside and deciding whether or not to heal someone based on the quality, type and/or quantity of prayer offered... well, do you actually believe that? Doesn't the idea of a genuinely interventionist personal God make you feel a bit sick?

I believe there is an interventionist God. I think if you really believe then often your prayers are answered. The idea of a genuinely interventionist God doesn't make me sick at all, it gives me hope. I don't think we are mere accidents who arose by chance from a primordial amoeba. I think there is a purpose for our existence and I believe God gives us strength and can intervene on our behalf.

"Well of coure it doesn't work - if the person gets better it's got nothing to do with how many people talked to their imaginary friends. Either the medical treatment worked or it was a coincidence."

I've seen a few too many coincidences where the medical establishment has said "it is all over, there's nothing further we can do" and somebody is literally at death's door and they have recovered to live for years afterwards. Even doctors have no explanation and say that it was a miracle. There is a magic power in the universe, way beyond our understanding, and I think it is God.

"You see, I find the idea that you have to make up some kind of imaginary friend and worship it to be fundamentally fucking ridiculous. And I simply don't understand how otherwis intelligent people fall for this."

But having a religion doesn't always mean having an imaginary friend. For me it's about believing in some sort of shared conciousness/energy thing...and that's something that is being proven in physics, actually. So it's way too disparaging of you to dismiss religion in the way you do, when people far more intelligent, I expect, than you are starting to believe there is something in the idea of a deity, albeit not one who is on high and in charge and in control.

To me, the power of prayer is about harnessing energies we know very little about, but about which there is too much evidence - anecdotal for millenia, and scientific now too - for it to be ignored or dismissed as something only stupid people believe in.

earwigca... I have very little interested in the oxymoron that is Islamic Feminism. In fact I think the concept is rather insulting to feminism....sura 4.34 at the very least makes it impossible.

Who said anything about white Western women anyway? I simply mentioned the fact that converted seemed even more bizarre than being born into such an out dated and patriarchal religion.