Liberal/radical feminism?

[LackingInspiration]

In the thread getting people to jump in and introduce themselves (which I'm just getting to the end to and about to do so myself!), Dittany wrote this:

"Radical feminists believe that the whole system is patriarchal and oppressive and needs to be overthrown whereas liberal feminists for example want to work for equality with men within the existing system."

I was wondering, then, how I would define myself. I would describe myself politically as libertarian leaning. But I also would say from Dittany's definition, that I am a radical feminist.

I feel very strongly that women should not be trying to be equal to men, but should be trying to be equally celebrated for the wonderfully different ways in which they are able to contribute to society. Women are not men...but they are also not second class citizens because they have different skills and abilities.

Please can you wonderful women help me explore this further?

yep. i really think married men need to wise up and get behind single dads because i think it's through their battles that conditions could improve for everyone. in a marriage they can hide domestic labour and childraising, it's in the arena of single dad's that it comes to the forefront - you know like when they're forcing people to work but not providing the childcare and there isn't the slack of a husband who'll stay home and do it you know? i think it totally undermines masculinism when men sub-group and scapegoat each other.

Hmmm. Sounds a bit like the victimhood of the weak when put like that. If it makes any sense whatsoever.
Could we also perhaps also substitute ?domestic labour and childraising? for ?ex-domestic labour and lack of familial contact? as well?

Purely a heuristic device. I hope you understand.

I'm a socialist-feminist, if anyone is looking for other branches to name themselves. Like the radical feminist I believe that the system needs to be overthrown, but I believe that the feminist agenda needs to be within the wider sphere of an economic and cultural revolution, because that is where a very large part of womens oppression lie. I can't identify as a radical feminist because I don't think you can remove the feminist struggle from the wider political arena.

Hear hear BuzzLightBeer
We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother.
You are a man, I presume? No other creature could have used so many words to say so very, very little.

No penis actually, though thanks for the unnecessary rudeness.

Dunno what's going on around here BLB, but I think someone on MN is on crack :o

Hmm. I'd have to say I'm a radical feminist, then, because I can't see any way in which women and men can be equal with society the way it is at present. But how on earth do you go about changing society to that extent?

BLB, I definitely agree with you that women's issues should be looked at within a wider sphere, but I also think that a lot of economic/social issues (particularly in other countries) would be solved by improving the rights of women. I've been reading Half the Sky recently which makes some good points about this - i.e. that educating women, or allowing them to start businesses, has ramifications for a much larger portion of society.

I agree, but I think its patching up the holes instead of getting a new bucket.

I'm not sure the ideology of Libertarianism is compatible with Feminism.

I haven't read the thread, so sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I regard myself as a radical feminist in the sense that when radical feminists speak or write they always make perfect sense to me , but when liberal feminists talk about improving the lot of women within the current political and economic system, I don't see them leading us out of oppression; I just see a lot of wishful thinking.

The more I think about it, the more I am certain that patriarchy is a regime
What confuses people is that the members of the dominant class and subordinate class are borne of the same family: brothers and sisters. This is the only system of oppression that has ever worked like this. Black people, ethnic minorities- have always been The Other that you had no blood ties with. But under patriarchy, women have fathers, brothers and husbands who are members of the dominant class.
How can they possibly see themselves as being oppressed by a group of people to whom their precious loved ones belong

And yet... patriarchy is a class system, an oppression of women that ensures they will continue to do the shit jobs in society that no- one else will do for very little pay; while men continue to have choice-picking of the jobs, and can ask just about any price they want, in many cases for doing fuck all.

I also think liberal feminists miss the point that society's world view is patriarchal. From eugenics, to objectification, to only valuing money; from bolstering anything that men do while simultaneously devaluing whatever women happen to do.

today I read a beautiful quote from a mother:

"Every one of the six billion people in the world?every single person I encounter each day?spent dark, watery months inside a womb and was birthed by a woman. This has become my ultimate act of devotion: to remember, in each encounter, Your mother birthed you"

Patriarchy tries its damndest to make sure everyone forgets this basic fact of how the world works. It forces us to praise environmental destruction and money-making, and it wants women on board

Having said that, liberal and radical feminism overlap. A 50% representation in parliament will do a lot for women and will have a knock on effect through society. They need at least 50% of the world's resources in their hands.
They need power - enough power to stop the stupidity of men and their war-mongering

Buzzlightbeer I'm a socialist-radical-feminist I suppose what I mean is the economic oppression of women is the consequence of patriarchy (the poverty of single mothers, for example, or women for whom selling sex is a reasonable option in the face of limited options) . I'm always looking at feminism in this light. I don't see it being separate to radical feminism

ooh, lots of deleted posts, aimed at rad-fems I take it.

We must be doing something right
The angrier the response, the closer to the bone you know you've got

Liberal feminist I guess. But I also beleive that there is a patriarchy that has built up over the years like barnacles on a boat bottom - it's now so thick and encrusted that most people don't even realise it doesn't have to be there - it isn't inevitable that women are weak and powerless and that men are strong and violent. Those are just some of the stereotypes that the patriarchy has found helpful.

I have boys as well as a girl to bring up so I worry as much about the chains that patriarchy wants to load onto my sons, as onto my daughter.

LIke the barnacle analogy. I agree the status quo is not inevitable. I read some feminist say "we are feminists because we believe in the humanity of men, despite all evidence to the contrary" She's not exaggerating: just look at the mass-rapes and genocides perpertrated by men on (mainly) women

But yes, patriarchy is horribly oppressive to certain groups of men: the young, homosexuals, the weak, the disenfranchised, the poor

The problem is that it is triply horribly oppressive to women in those groups

Liberal feminist, although I actually refer to myself as a gender equalist, i.e. standing up for the rights of both sexes.