Mr and Mrs John Smith

[PrettyCandles]

How do you feel about this form of address?

I've never really wanted to use Mrs as I felt it unfair that the man was not expected to indicate the change in status from single (ie avaiable) to married (ie unavailable). I'm quite happy to indicate that I am married - it was the inequality that bugged me.

But what really narks me is when I get letters addressed to Mrs HisName PrettyCandles.

Why?

What's wrong with Mrs MyName PrettyCandles?

It's only historical to use the old form. Women have not become men's property upon marriage for over a century.

Do you think it's about time to change this form of address?

My mum - v right on for 60 something - never accapted the "Mrs DadName Surname" thing, unitl he died, nearly 20 years ago. Now she address herself that way in his memory.

Mrs MaleName Surname = married to eldest son
Mrs MaleInitial Surname = married to second son
Mrs Surname = married to third and subsequent son.

There is something complicated about generations too.

See, for me, grumpypants, I don't link it to chivalrous behaviour like opening doors etc, 'the fairer sex', but to the potential other side of old-fashioned gender relations i.e. all things womanly being direspected or even held in contempt. I mean how much further away can you get from nobly cherishing 'the fairer sex' than addressing someone as Geoffrey or Roger?

I don't think I'm explaining myself well... when I even imagine being called Mrs John Smith I feel like I'm being taken down a peg or two iyswim. It makes me feel indignant. And I am all for old-fashioned 'chivalry', the last person to get remotely offended about doors held open and dates paid for by the man. It's not a feeling I'm used to, and it makes me feel glad and grateful that I haven't had to get used to it in my life.

That's interesting - maybe it is one's experiences that make one feel one way or another? For me, my experience of this is my grandparents who are v old fashioned but extremeley courteous, so it's nice. Maybe if I hadn't had that, I would think differently?

I don't like this, but I have to say, I very rarely see it applied to me as an individual. If it's used, it's when me and DH are being addressed as a collective. So we have had Chrstmas cards to Mr and Mrs A. EightiesChick, rather than Mr A. and Mrs B. EightiesChick. But I don't get cards addressed to Mrs. A EightiesChick. This is largely because I didn't change my name, too, so cards come to me in my own name!

While I don't like it, there is lots of linguistic sexism I dislike even more. I think this is one of those things that will effectively die out as greater informality becomes (even more) the norm, so you just won't have things addressed in this way at all. But it's an irritation in the meantime.

Interesting; I have to say I can't think of anyone I know who uses that form of address (well, if I do know them I don't know about it!). So I don't have any fond associations with it, no. I suppose it could also be the perceived etiquette-guide-iness of it (since that's really the only sort of context I've seen it), and I don't tend to take kindly to being told how things are 'done' by an etiquette guide. So maybe it is both feminist instincts and my natural contrary streak that makes me feel so strongly about it!

that was in reply to grumpypants btw.

Actually scratch that about not knowing anyone who uses it, I've just remembered a couple of people and they are not the type to inspire warm feelings in me about courtesy and old-fashioned gentility! So yes, personal experience must have a lot to do with it...

I couldn't believe it when my mother started doing this, neither my Stepmum nor my MIL (both more conservative) ever have. My Stepmum once explained it to me though like this (again its old 19th century)

Senior wife of family (married to father or oldest son) is Mrs Surname
Wife of junior male (eg younger son)
Mrs John Surname
Widow (could be used to be Mrs Surname)
Mrs hername Surname

so its about inheritance etc. And thus is annoying crap

Probably you are right - the only time i notice it is when Granny sends me a cheque or letter, and she is my favourite in the family, so in the same way that pan drops make me smile, this feels safe, to belong to someone - that sounds dreadful, i know.

It's hideous and makes my teeth itch. Thankfully nobody ever calls me Mrs DHName (apart from the copper who called round after my car was broken into - he had only spoken to DH who hadn't actually given him my name, so fair assumption) but if anyone ever addressed me as Mrs DHname DHsurname I'm afraid their letter would be going in the bin. Or returned with 'no such person' written over it.

I had to ask a temp in my office to re-write a letter once after she addressed it to Mr and Mrs John Smith and pp'd it for me - no way am I putting my name to that. Never.

I don''t think that's dreadful grumpypants... I think I can see what you mean. But then I'm usually of the opinion that a tradition originally rooted in sexism can be acceptable if its meaning shifts. E.g. being given away at the altar, I can completely see why people find it offensive, yet I also see that for some brides nowadays, most of whom have lived away from their parents and earn their own living anyway, it can be a sweet moment between father and daughter. (But I wouldn't particularly want to defend that viewpoint on this section...! Just digressing.)

I think that the reason thus archaic form of address has nit yet died out isn't all the dear old grannies and frustrating MILs, but, ironically, modern technology.

When the first address databases were being set up, the Mrs HisName Surname style was still the norm. Nobody, when designing new databases, manages the names differently. OK, so addressing your older customers in a more modern manner might alienate them, but FGS it's a database, you have almost complete freedom of design. Have separate forename and surname fields for both husband abd wife, as well as a d.o.b. field, Anx if the dob is, say, pre-WW2, trigger the old style of address, if later then trigger the Mr A and Mrs Y form of address.

Sorted.

Oh, and you may still hold the door open for me.

Interesting point, Pretty. I'd be horrified if a company wrote to Mrs Dhfirstname Dhsurname.

Keeping my own name has had the useful side benefit of allowing me to spot sales calls immediately when they ask 'is that Mrs Dhname?'.