Skinheads

[ButterpieBride]

I have just been thinking about a conversation I had a couple of years ago. A male friend (he was quite muscly- he worked out) asked me if he should shave his head, and would it suit him. I said that, obv it was his hair, but if i was him I would be worried about looking like a thug- I have obviously known nice muscly skinheads, but I have also known a high percentage to be abusers, roid heads, thugs and so on.
He said that I was being the same as the people who say women shouldn't wear low cut tops in case they look like sluts.
I was a bit taken aback, but I think he may have been right...what do you think?

but on the other hand far too cute o be threatening me think

I guess it depends on the circumstances you meet people but just "assuming" is not fair IMHO.

People make assumptions about the way everyone looks. It's healthy & normal to assess the world around you - if you don't make judgements based on what you see/hear or have exp'd in the past, you wouldn't be learning anything. I have to (attempt to) read body language as part of my job - I take everything into account and make a judgement call. How we look makes people think things - it's up to you if you fly in the face of that. My DH is a muscular man with a shaved head, tattoos and a facial piercing. People find him intimidating but he's an absolute sweetheart. I have recently dyed my hair pink (not intentional - but that's another thread )and get funny looks & lots of comments. Personally I find shaved heads, tattoos and muscles very sexy. A skinhead is a whole different thing - it's a lifestyle choice - they dress a certain way, act a certian way - people should educate themselves about the differences so they're not scared of every baldy out there!!

Minxie, I have got a chip on my shoulder, that is why I do not like assumption . In my case people assme that

1. I am an oppressed woman

2. I am probaly a terrorist or at the very leat married to one

I think "assess" someone because of their look is normal but dismiss them completely is not. I which my command of the English language was better and that I could find the proper words to explain the difference I make between the two.

When DS was a baby I had a shaved head (well, number 4). I am a moderately large woman, but I don't think many people automatically assumed I was about to either assault them or eat my own baby. (I shaved my head because a mate dared me to but also because DS was weaning and it was so much easier to shift all the handfuls of mashed banana and weetabix from a shaved head...).
Thing is, if you go round in terror of the way other people dress rather than their behaviour or indeed the look on their faces, you're going to have a very nervous restricted life, aren't you? People in smart suits and nice subtle makeup can be disgusting violent arseholes as well.

I'm presuming that you wear a veil/headcovering gori.

In that case, when you made the decision to do so, you must have considered what people would think and decided that your reasons for were much stronger. All power to you for that.

As annoying as it is though, I think before someone changes their appearence, they do need to think about how people will see them. Annoying as it is, when I had pink hair and black clothes, people saw me differently than how they do now. And tbf, they were probably right in many ways.

If we didn't want to send out messages, we wouldn't dress any differently to each other. Sometimes we accidentally give out the wrong message, or someone interprets us wrong, but we need to be aware that it might happen.

Yes ButterpieBride

We all give messages according to how we dress, look...

I have no problem with anyone assuming I am a Muslim (in fact I was once shocked someone did not) but I do have a problem with anyone assuming I am opressed for example.

It is not only a matter of the person who dresses differently to take responsability for their choices (or it would indeed mean it is ok to assume that a woman who dresses in a "sexy" way is most definitely a slut which I am sure we agree on is NOT the case), it is also a matter of the people who see said person being able to keep an open mind on things and reserve hasty judgement.

The whole skinhead movement was an 80s thing though surely, I don't think a shaved head has the same connotations now at all, it's now a mainstream look.

Some of DHs friends have shaved heads (skin not number 1/2 etc) and I see it as quite a normal look TBH. They are going bald

If I see a man with a skinhead, and a swallow tattooed on his neck, with a rottweiler, and carrying a flag with a swastika on it, then I normally steer clear...

Richard O'brien
duncan goodhew
that bloke out of right said fred

Why a swallow tattoo ISNT?

I don't think you were wrong to warn him of how he would appear to some people, and I think your friend was a bit touchy to accuse you of being judgemental. If one of my friends wanted to wear a backless leather dress then I would warn her or him that some people would think they were very alternative/into fetish stuff etc.

Of course not all men with shaved heads are thugs. But a combination of big bulky muscles, certain clothes and shaved head is one look chosen by men who want to make themselves look intimidating - it's a kind of "fuck you" uniform, much favoured by bouncers etc. So if you think he doesn't actually want to look scary, you are doing him a favour by warning him about the assumptions that strangers might make.

Also frik has an excellent point - people shy away from "scary" looking men because they are anxious about their personal safety. They just look down on "slutty" girls, and avoiding them is not the usual reaction IME.

What Lynette said.

Many of my muscly, big friends shave their heads.

They are bald, not violent.

It looks good IMO.

Must be the social circles I move in, but if I was to have a prejudice about men with shaved heads it would be that they are more likely to be gay rather than being a thug...

A swallow tattoo is supposedly one that people who have been to prison brand themselves with I don't know why.

When I wasd a girl scary men had swallows on their necks, or a tattoo of a spiders web over their faces

don't know why, but they were scary

TBH it's the way something is worn, and what it's worn with, taht sends a complete message. One thing by itself, if not accompanied by other parts of a certain "uniform" is not a problem usually.

So shaved head with normal clothes on a standard looking bloke = fine

shaved head + attack dog + attitude + missing teeth = not fine

Dh is tall, muscular and shaves his head.

He isn't a thug.

Yes it's a horrible stereotype.

And my dh is muscular with long hair, and he also gets lots of assumptions made about him. He's been accused of being a thief and loitering with intent, and also its been asssumed that he wwas homeless when he was sitting in town waiting for me. What I'm saying is, whatever you do, there's a stereotype for people to associate with.

Stereotypes are funny things. I find shaved heads, long hair and heavy metal gear perfectly fine most of the time (along with the facial piercings) but baseball caps, Burberry, lots of gold and tracksuits tend to make me nervous. I guess it has a lot to do with previous experience, and who you hung around with when you were younger.

For the record, my DP used to be a New Romantic (before I met him, so I've only seen photos) but now his hair is disappearing, he's a number 1 all over, or a Bic during summer. Shocked my mum the first time she met him but she's OK about it now

my dh has a shaved head and doesn't look thuggish becuase of the type of clothes he wears - kinda boho

the thing about stereotypes is this.

they are stereotypes for a reason. yes there are many exceptions to the stereotype rule - but we make assumptions about everything all the time,

i think its unrealistic and frankly insane and bizarre to try and walk round your whole life taking ewveryone on face value.

This reminds me of the responses to the piece of writing on Schrodinger's rapist. It was essentially discussing how as a woman, if you approached by a man they don't know well, your responses have to involve the possibility that he might be a rapist/violent and that he might not be, at the same time. Women have to assess whether or not men are dangerous to them, because women are attacked and raped by men, and women are much less frequently attacked by each other. I have to say that under such circumstances women have an obligation to think of their own safety first.

So if an individual chooses to dress or alter their appearance in a particular way, (and dress is a form of communication) and that appearance is similar to ones that are associated with violence, a woman may choose to take that into account. It is on the part of the man a decision to alter his appearance in a way that may be intimidating to others. Women have to make decisions about their safety based on what messages a man is giving off. Why do women feel the need to put the feelings of everyone else before their own sense of safety?

At the very least an adult man with a skinhead is saying that he knows some people may be intimidated by his appearance and he doesn't care. I cannot see how that is the least bit similar to a woman who may or may not be aware that she is giving off signals that she is sexual to other people and does not care. But we seem to live in a society where women's sexuality is seen as being as great a personal, female responsibility as male aggression and intimidating behaviour is to a man. That seems crazy to me.

Hmmm so what do you do if you have no hair to speak of milly, and you shave what remains for neatness?

It seems grossly unfair. Men musn't stereotype, but women can.

Men and women can both stereotype. They can both stereotype about people who chose to communicate in a way that seems intimidating or dangerous, but they should not stereotype or judge other people based on assumptions about sexuality.

Some people in response to Schrodinger's rapist have said that men have a responsibility to not be aggressive and women have an equal responsibility to not appear to be sexually active. I think we all have an equal responsibility to not be aggressive, violent or intimidating.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a man shaving his head, but neither do I think there is anything wrong with people making assumptions about it. Obviously there are limits to this - in the workplace you have the opportunity to get a much more rounded perspective on someone. In a pub you do not.

I think I'm on the fence about this one.

I agree with your posts Milly.
I don't think this is right:
"women have an equal responsibility to not appear to be sexually active."
which is what the OP's friend is trying to argue, isn't it.

Appearing sexually active and appearing violent can't be lumped in the same bracket, can they? Men are allowed to appear sexually active but women are not. And obviously women do not appear dangerous to men, whatever look they go for.

But I do think there's more to skinheads than just the shaved head. Skinheads-I mean the people who do behave according to the stereotype-send off more signals than just the shaved head. I personally wouldn't equate a shaved head with violence, but if there was a man who had other typical skinhead traits, translated through body language and general demeanour, I would be wary.

Well come Saturday morning DH will be wearing reading specs. They delightfully contradict the supposed image of brooding skinhead malevolence. Now he looks like a geography teacher Which is what he is after all.