Racism veiled as liberation

[earwicga]

IMO, this is a brilliant article today by Madeline Bunting - an excerpt:

"The veil debate is making it entirely legitimate to pillory, mock and ridicule a tiny number of women on the basis of what they wear. French politicians described the full veil as a "walking coffin"; on comment threads online there is contempt and sneers for the full veil and those who wear it ? "hiding under a blanket", "going round with a paper bag over your head". In France it is estimated there are only 2,000 women who cover their faces with the burqa or the niqab out of a Muslim population of five million. The response is out of all proportion.

Let's be clear: the niqab and burqa are extreme interpretations of the Islamic requirement for modest dress; few Islamic scholars advocate their use, and many ? including Tariq Ramadan ? have urged women not to use them. They are as alien to many Muslim cultures as they are to the west. And yes, there are instances of patriarchy where some women might be encouraged or even forced to wear a full veil by their husbands or fathers. But generalisations don't fit. Increasingly, young women are choosing to wear the full veil, seeing it as a powerful statement of identity.

Invoking the full weight of the state to police dress codes in public is an extraordinary extension of state powers over an aspect of citizen behaviour which is largely regarded as your own business. Provided you are wearing some clothing, western public space is a free-for-all, and across every capital in Europe that is strikingly self-evident"
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jul/14/forced-into-freedom-france

One example of a young French woman's reaction to this can be found here: bit.ly/aBVa4x

What do MumsNetters think? Seems to me that if we condemn those who dictate as to women's clothing in Sudan for example (see Lubna Hussein) then we must equally condemn those who dictate as to women's clothing in Europe.

Did you mean 'sacred'?

It's just that many Muslims have 'religious' reasons on some days and not others....so entirely political.

I wonder if there would be less ignorant response if Islam wasn't so exclusive...easy to pin racist thoughts on a woman wearing the Burkha(for the racist), perhaps other more 'modest' Muslims make your life harder?

And you do judge dress Riven, just not Muslim dress.

And, No, it won't happen here.

yes, men do need to change their behviour because nothing women wear will change it for them AFAICS. I think this is the problem some western feminists have with the theory behind wearing the veil.
But at the same time I can understand some of the other reasons why muslim women would want to wear the veil, such as being easily identifiable as muslim, or wanting to keep their hair for their husband, or even for asthetic reasons because they do look nice a lot of the time.

Don't make remind you of the muffin tops outside your house......

So is there no wankery behaviour in Saudi Arabia, northern Nigeria, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan?

(I was thinking of Germany wrt the Nazi ban.)

There is much worse abuse of women in muslim and all not yet advanced countries than in the UK. So you could conclude keeping women down without power and money and covered in stupid clothes enables men to abuse them. Cast off the veil and be liberated.

They're not long elegant robes are they? They're huge wind catching robes, no beautiful lines or flowing silks, just triangular layers with a round face in the middle, or not.

I think the muslim dress is very elegant, in most cases. Not the burqua, obv.
But all those beautiful materials they use; I often feel muslim women have got so much more variety. I'm sure most of the material is imported because none of them appear in high street shops. And it looks so neat. Headscarves have always come in and out of fashion in Europe.

The most beautifully dressed ethnic/religious group in Bristol, for me, are Hindu women...now they do love their flowing silks. Most Muslim women, here, wear black or brown in a very basic material and certainly no individuality or flare....but I'm sure it's not the case in London, in fact I saw lots of Burberry headscarves whilst I was there. Which brings me, neatly, onto another point about religion and dress code. Unfortunately it does seem to be another Islam thing too. But how can closer to God mean cover your hair and walk around dripping with gold, how is being stinking rich pleasing to God, surely it is more pleasing to share wealth? I know, personally, the Clark family of Quakers and even with their massive personal fortune they still live relatively modestly, really help their employees, donate and build their local towns and amenities.

I still don't understand the notion that God would be more pleased if a woman covered completely and doesn't care whether or not she is obscenely rich....

My disappointment in Iran wasn't with the sexism and ridiculous clothing but that it wasn't freeing, that so many women have cosmetic surgery, that so many are in effect play things of men, that so many spend so long on eye make up. They are more into clothes, hair, make up and silly stuff like that than in the West and that felt very dsiappointing. You would have hoped the only good thing the dress might bring was total freedom from having to bother how you look which is how religious dress works with Christians, nuns aren't in sexy stuff underneath with make up on.

I don't think muslimsare less generous than CHristians and countries like Iran had a revolution to get rid of the concentrated power in the hand of the elite which Saudi hasn't managed.

Anyway we're English so we;re not going to be banning clothing.

I read an interesting article about a mother married to a muslim in the US in today's paper where the 9 year old is choosing to cover her head (because all the little girls shemixes with with her father's friends etc do). I wasn't convinced by the arguments but it put a point of view. Would have been Times or Telegraph.

Xenia, I think the burqa does actually focus attention on the appearance of women to a degree that would leave many non-Muslim women flabbergasted. Even if you don't have the plastic surgery or the done up eyes or the perfectly shaped eyebrows, you surely take more trouble about your appearance than most fairly casual non-Muslim women do even if all you do is throw on your abaya and cover your hair before going out.

It seems to me there's a lot of fussing about outward appearance in order to do something allegedly inwards-oriented or purely God-oriented. "none of them, muslim women or Hindu women (who are religious too in that way you don't understand) are dressing for you." Then why bother doing it at all? It is not a religious requirement, not something called for by the Koran. The desexualisation of oneself as a woman by covering up with a burqa, a niqab, a scarf over your hair is pleasing to God -- how? Did God make women, and if so why would the sight of them be displeasing to him?

And the covering up of little pre-pubescent girls is just sick. Sorry.

I'm not allowed in a Mosque, but I am allowed in a Church every day of the week and sitting with my husband and children. Can you also highlight some of the funds that the Mosque has given to the wider community as all I can see is Muslims looking after their own. Christianity has always championed charity for all.

We are allowed in mosques. Call one up and arrange a visit. And most muslims do give a lot of money to the disadantaged but that doesn't remove the fact that most paternalistic religions founder 2 thousand years ago are sexist and very bad for women, WOmen are working to change those., Plenty of Muslim women lobby to permit female immans, to explain how clothing requirements which hinder women's ability to move around etc are wrong and they will of course prevail.

Most muslim women don't cover up and plenty of London woemn muslims are surgeons and other successful careers. But I do think funadamentally if we're made in GOd's image God wants that body seen and enjoyed and that to cover it up could indeed be a crime against God. They/we will find out when we die I suppose. SheHe will laugh and say you silly things to cover up what I created. I wanted you to enjoy it and by covering you are saying you are ashamed of my creation. And all these rligious hang ups about sex were only imposed by men because they fear the power of women and want to know who is the father of their children.

I don't hate Muslims, I find Islam more difficult and exclusive than any other mainstream religion I've encountered. I find it much less cohesive in British society than most other religions I have encountered. The ideas that separate ordinary followers by gender are too backward for a modern society and that's why most of the cultures where it flourishes are not fast evolving.

I have friends who are Muslim, albeit very progressive, clever, non covering non converting women who have married western men. But then these women grew up in Muslim countries and came to the UK to be free and not bound by gender inequality and religious submission. These women do not understand why anyone would cover up completely and think that the women that do are submissive and/or poor.

Sorry, just need to lol at muslim societies not developing fast. did you not see Robin Hood Prince of Thieves Posie?