Ploughing through Wolf Hall

[Mushroomwithaview]

It's extremely good. Probably one of the best books I've ever read. But by golly it's long and complicated. I tend to read at the end of the day when I'm tired and I often only manage a few pages at a time so it's not exactly zipping along.

Exactly this! I realised I have to start again as I’ve lost track :/ but it is so brilliant

It has just occurred to me that the painting he commissioned by Holbein really exists, of course. Hadn't thought of that!

Yes, and last year the prayer book in the painting was identified as being in the Cambridge Library. It is called the Book of Hours.

It blew my mind that Mantel didn’t actually know that it was in Cambridge yet it features in WH. But then I figured she had seen the painting, but still, the woman was a marvel 😍

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/trinity-college-prayer-book-belonged-to-thomas-cromwell-new-research-suggests

I always find the contrast between his face and the complexity of the mind behind it arresting, which was of course also part of his impact on the court at the time.

Holbein's painting gives him such a strong presence and will.

He is such a compelling man in her description. Razor-sharp, fearless, controlled, complex, deep, flawed. The increasingly flashes of hubris in Bring Up the Bodies pain me because I know where they lead

There are times when he says 'If I were king...' or 'If I were pope' and every time I wince and think 'FGS, don't say that, and especially not to Wroithesley.'

I raced through the first two books, but found The Mirror and the Light quite hard going. I think that by that stage nobody was brave enough to stand up to Dame Hilary to tell her that the book needed some firm editing! Can't wait for the final TV version, though.

I tried about 3 times to read the book but found it too hard going. Listened to it via audio books and loved it ! Made myself listen to a chapter a day when I got in from work - going to start the next one this week when I'm back at work

After all, he'd gone from blacksmith's boy to baron, and Wolsey had gone from butcher's boy to Lord Chancellor who could have been Pope with the right bribes laid. I see his hubris more in his increasing belief in the things he can control and manipulate, including the noble families, and of course he's often right, but the resentment is storing up for him nonetheless.

I always thought Mark Rylance was miscast as Cromwell - he's too reserved and cerebral, whereas Cromwell really needs to look like a bruiser who could lamp you one at any minute.

It really did need pruning. My take is that she didn't want to face writing the ending.

And he knows Henry can't be trusted, so it's simply a matter of when. He even acknowledges that it's going to happen and hopes that it's quick.

This was my issue, I couldn’t keep track of which Thomas was which, or which ‘he’ was being referred to, I so wanted to love Wolf Hall but I had to give up :(

Yes. Making your fortune off Henry without a background of nobility is clinging to a tiger's tail, and Cromwell knows it.

'Those claws, those claws.' TC has more in common with T More than he can admit.

I have to disagree over Mark Rylance being miscast. I thought he was wonderful, he really brought Hilary Mantel's Cromwell to life for me. I loved the adaptation, and hope that, when The Mirror and The Light comes to TV, it's just as good.

We live near a couple of the locations they used for filming - Montacute and Barrington Court in Somerset, so were interested to see how they'd been used.

We went to the touring exhibition of the costumes from the series and they were gorgeous.

I just couldn't - and can't - take him seriously as someone you'd be frightened to meet down a dark alley. Some of the compellingness of Cromwell comes from the difference between the heavy-fisted hot-tempered labourer he is by appearance and the highly trained whipsharp brain. Holbein manages to capture that, for me, but Rylance looks to me like the brain without the brawn. (Or the temper; Cromwell is a firebrand by nature who disciplines himself by force.) No insult to Rylance as an actor; I'd buy him as Hamlet or King Lear, no bother.

That's usually a bug bear I have with some books but I've picked up lot of Tudor history over the years so oddly wasn't an issue as "knew" them- and then had odd stray inaccurate fact annoying me - but yes it was very readable and yes I did get invested in Cromwell journey for the first time rather than him being a background character or just Henrys hatched man - made me look again at him.

I wasn't sure about Mark Rylance initially in part but think he kind of pulled it off by end of series.

Maybe a silly question, but why is the first book called Wolf Hall? Either I have missed something (highly likely), or it is about to become clear towards the end of the book that the Seymore family have been playing the long game? I realise Henry marries Jane Seymore after Anne (unsure whether in this book or the next) but so far the family at Wolf Hall have not been very central to any of the plot.

I thought I would love it but I just couldn't get through it. Too many great books waiting to be read to bother persevering imo.

I just couldn't - and can't - take him seriously as someone you'd be frightened to meet down a dark alley

Even his son says 'Didn't you know?' when TC says that Holbein says he looks like a murderer. Agree about Rylance, but it was more than your life was worth on some SM to express that view when Wolf Hall aired.

The Seymours aren't smart enough to play the long game. Besides, before Anne the idea the king would marry an English gentlewoman would have struck the court as crazy. Royal marriages are about international alliances, not love.

The name "Wolf Hall" is effectively about the baser instincts that underlie the court. First there's the affair between Sir John Seymour and his own DIL, showing the animal instincts and behaviour that still goes on between members of the court. Then there's the Latin proverb "Homo homini lupus", man is a wolf to another man. The court is, below the surface, the embodiment of this.

I love Cromwell's relationship with that comment of Gregory's. It clearly hurts him, but to an extent he tries to lean into it and embrace it.

The Seymours aren't smart enough to play the long game. Besides, before Anne the idea the king would marry an English gentlewoman would have struck the court as crazy. Royal marriages are about international alliances, not love

I have to disagree with that. Edward IV married Elizabeth Woodville, so there was precedent within the last 70 years, and Anne being elevated to queen gave every family hope that their daughter could do the same - after all, if the king can discard the aunt of the Holy Roman Emperor then he can discard the daughter of a courtier even more easily. I think it's in The Other Boleyn Girl that Anne says she's shown everyone that queens can be replaced.

Fair enough. I think my point about the Seymours stands though 😁 Certainly the Seymours were playing the game once they realised Anne was on the outs and the king had an eye for Jane, but that was post-Wolf Hall.

I agree that the Seymours are being seizing the day here once they see the king's interest in Jane - it's moved from 'wouldn't it be great if the king favoured our daughter/family' (the aspiration of every courtier) to being a more than possibility they need to work on as hard as they can.

Tudor court politics (and what Reitha Warnick calls harem politics) were so sticky and complicated and treacherous it's a wonder anyone made it out alive.

“I look like a murderer.”

”Didn’t you know?”