📚 "Rather Dated" February: Dorothy Whipple, Someone at a Distance 📚

[frustratedacademic]

📚 "Rather Dated" bookclub choice for February: Dorothy Whipple, Someone at a Distance 📚

Welcome to the Mumsnet 'Rather Dated' Book Group, where we are reading and discussing fiction from the 1930s to the 1990s that would have been described as 'contemporary' in its day. We are reading one book a month. Spoilers are permitted!

We started the chat thanks to a thread where we kicked off with a discussion of Penelope Lively, The Road to Lichfield.

Currently we have these separate threads:
November: Anita Brookner, A Start in Life
December: Margaret Drabble: A Summer Bird-Cage
January: Elizabeth Jane Howard, The Beautiful Visit.

And this current one for February: Dorothy Whipple, Someone at a Distance. Available second-hand, via the library, or the most excellent Perspehone Books, where you can read the preface by another wonderful writer, Nina Bawden: https://persephonebooks.co.uk/products/someone-at-a-distance.

An excerpt from the above site: 'This Fifties novel about a quietly catastrophic love triangle is beautiful and moving,' was the headline in The Times... 'Published in 1953 and set in England’s rural commuter belt, Someone at a Distance is a love triangle with two unlikely protagonists. Who is responsible for changing the course of our lives, the novel asks? Is it ourselves, those closest to us, or can our lives be shaped by people we don’t even know?"

(With huge thanks to ImJustMadAboutSaffron for the original thread and idea)

Me too

I was wondering about the title, and I think you’re right @SapatSea . The someone is Paul, who causes all the trauma and destruction, whilst being at a distance and having nothing to do with Ellen and her family.

Just finished it - I’m slightly conflicted by it but couldn’t put it down. On the one hand all the characters and the plot were slightly one dimensional - the happy, innocent, perfect wife; the wealthy, spoiled husband; the ghastly wicked Frenchwoman; the ultimate triumph of good over evil (sainted wife gets her errant and now truly appreciative husband back). But the writing is wonderful, and the characters somehow were credible and absorbing. I felt sorry for stupid Avery, wanted Ellen to post in AIBU about Louise not lifting a finger and getting some great confidence boosting advice to kick her out, and wanted to see Louise’s dresses. Loved it, can’t wait for the next one.

I’ve just finished and am really enjoying reading all your comments and insights.

A few rather disjointed thoughts:

I love the Garden of Eden image - and yes, it really does fit with Louise being the serpent. I also agree that I would have liked Louise to have been a little more nuanced rather than so obviously the baddie. True, she does have her broken heart as an excuse but you get the feeling that she was never really a nice person even before that. I also wondered whether Louise’s experiences during the War had shaped her character in any way but alas we will never know!

I too felt that there was a lot that would be unpicked psychologically on AIBU! Is she a narcissist? Why does Avery feel so obliged to marry her even though he seems to be immediately miserable in her company? Is it ever a good idea to refuse alimony?

The ending for me would have been stronger if Ellen had been a little less certain that she wanted Avery back in the future and that maybe she would end up preferring her own freedom in any case. But I guess that’s part of it being "dated". The plot would not work at all nowadays as I doubt there is anybody left who would feel morally obliged to marry someone they dislike so that their parents wouldn’t disown them!

I also think it seemed unrealistic that Avery and Ellen didn’t speak or see each other between his walking out and their chance meeting at the end but it worked dramatically. The Christmas lunch was a bit confusing too! They seemed to be hanging out all day before Ellen starting cooking "lunch" late in the afternoon. Not sure what that was about!

Those small niggles aside, I really enjoyed Whipple’s description of how Ellen’s whole identity as a wife, mother and homemaker was threatened by Avery’s actions and she gradually loses interest in all the household tasks she previously took pride in. One of my favourite moments:

"It went dark. Rain scratched at the windows. She added a boiled egg to the belated tea, to make one meal do for two. She had joined the great army of solitary women who have boiled eggs at night, the women without men".

I don’t think Whipple is saying this out of pity. She is just drawing attention to how much women’s lives revolve around facilitating the men they marry. Ellen married very young and we get hints that she would probably have had the chance of a better education if she had been born later (her interest and compassion for others, the books she borrows and loves). It is interesting that Louise has grown up surrounded by books and with loving parents but doesn’t seem to have any of the empathy for others that Ellen does.

I finished reading this last week, but it's still fresh in my mind. A sign of a good book :) I enjoyed reading everyone's comments too.

I really enjoyed At a Distance; but the part where Ellen realises what's happened, that her marriage is effectively over was baffling to me. Why was Avery so adamant that he had to divorce and then marry Louise? He didn't even like her really surely? It felt like Avery's true love was his daughter.

I think Louise would have been happy being divorced and getting a good settlement. She didn't love Avery at all.

@Howtohideasausage I'm surprised you think she didn't love him, I didn't think that. She loved him in a steady, 20 years of marriage sort of way!

From what I remember, it was a matter of pride that he didn't go back to Ellen. He made his decision and that was that. He would have looked weak if he had changed his mind.

@Howtohideasausage I have a few thoughts on Avery :

1. it may be part of Avery's pompus and arrogant beliefs, a sort of " code of honour" that in his mind having ruined/seduced Louise he felt he had to stick by her.

2)Perhaps he was so shocked at Anne seeing him and Louise on the sofa that he had to "prove" to her and himself that the affair was serious. He couldn't admit it had meant "nothing" as he would think that would diminish him in Anne and Ellen's eyes and lower his own opinion of himself. (he might feel he is not a man to act the "cad"). He couldn't be seen to wreck his marriage and Louise's adoration of him over "nothing." The affair had to mean something.

3. I think Avery and Ellen had entered the friend or brother and sister zone in their marriage. Avery didn't see Ellen as a sexual being anymore ( she dressed in men's pants to garden, wore little or no make up, no real interest in clothes like sophisticated, alluring Louise). Perhaps he wanted to blow up the smug family life he led for something more exciting but didn't appreciate what he was losing until it was gone and was only pining for Ellen and the kids again when he saw how they were able to manage and flourish without him or his money.

I agree that Louise would probably have been happy with a nice divorce settlement. Perhaps a second divorce would syink of failure ( and I think Avery mentioned something about how his family would cut him off).

The sensible thing to do would have been to admit his mistake straight away, wait and see if Louise had gotten pregnant and if not, pay her off, and stay married to Ellen who would have forgiven him. Avery is a fool and a dreadful self pitying weakling!

Apologies for all my typos in above post
@FuzzyCaoraDhubh - you are right about Avery. A much more succinct post than my ramble!

I like your ramble and agree with you on everything @SapatSea ! What is annoying is that Louise will take him to the cleaners and he will go back to Ellen and they will have to scrimp and scrape forever more, unless he is very well off, but I wouldn't say so.

I think this is part of why it might be thought slightly dated.

I think once he was found out Avery felt he had no choice but to divorce Ellen and marry Louise. I certainly got the impression that he would have regarded begging for Ellen's forgiveness as beneath his dignity as a man.

Yes, MotherofPearl. I think so. The modern man would have been on his knees asking for forgiveness.

Dorothy Whipple published some extracts from her childhood diaries about her idyllic upbringing and extracts about her process of writing ( inRandom Commentary) but I'm interested in what her own adult home life was like and if her marraige was a love match or marriage for companionship.

Her "close friend" George Owen ( whom she would have likely married) died in the first weeks of the Great War. She worked as a secretary for an educational administrator for 3 years, a widower 24 years her senior and married him in 1917 at age 24. She travelled with him to educational conferences where she observed people to get ideas for her books. Some commentators think that her first novel "Young Anne" is influenced by her own experiences ( death of a sweetheart, marriage to an older man, inability to have children) and that Lucy Moore's husband's personality in They Were Sisters is based on Henry Whipple (sarcastic wit), the Moore's marriage is also depicted as a childless but with good companionship.

I like They Were Sisters, I've not read Young Anne but have read most of DW's other books. I'm enjoying reading everyone's comments and I also like dmy re read of Someone at a Distance as it must be 15 + years since I first read it.

I agree - back to mummy, spent the kids inheritance, poorer but no wiser!

I know, Sapatsea. Very frustrating. I like the sound of They Were Sisters. Another* *book to add to the list!

Avery does say at one point that he has co-ownership of the family hosiery firm, doesn’t he? And that he’s not worried about money because of that; it'll just keep coming in. Presumably the publishing firm was the job he chose to do but he had that private income in the background. Although yes, Louise would want to get her mitts on it!

They Were Sisters is great and there’s also a film of it, which is well worth seeing if you spot it. Talking Pictures shows it occasionally. It’s got a splendid villain figure (a sort of male equivalent of Louise) played magnificently by James Mason.

In fact Whipple did quite well with screen adaptations: there’s also a good film version of They Knew Mr Knight. I’m half-surprised there wasn’t any attempt to adapt SAAD but on reflection, I suppose it’s a bit on the frank side for its time and might have worried the censors.

They Were Sisters is great and there’s also a film of it, which is well worth seeing if you spot it. Talking Pictures shows it occasionally. It’s got a splendid villain figure (a sort of male equivalent of Louise) played magnificently by James Mason.
I love this film (and James Mason!) It is also on Youtube but the quality is not great.

I finished today and enjoyed it. All the views here have made me think about it in other ways - the serpent/garden of Eden analogy had passed me by.
It paves the way into my next book "Perfect Wives" the story of women in the 1950s by Virginia Nicholson

What a lovely idea for a thread - is it a series? As life these days can be so anxiety provoking, I find solace in books set in the 30s- 50s. Conscious of the irony of this, since life wasn’t exactly a bed of roses in the 30s, or during WW2. A PP commented on how little the war seems to impinge on the book. I have found this too in books set in the 50s, I think it was a reaction to all the misery and drudgery of war. Of course at a safe distance we find it all fascinating and want to safeguard all the detail, but they obviously felt differently at the time. Just finished Excellent Women by Barbara Pym, a nice bit of vintage escapism. Will order the Dorothy Whipple.Interesting about “ Perfect Wives” gailforce. V. Nicholson’s book on post WW1 spinsters was a tour de force.

Hmm, Terpsichore. I thought Avery had to go into publishing because it was expected of him and his partner was running the show because he was better at it. Yes, the family hosiery firm. Well, there's plenty of money in tights!

That's a really interesting point about how little the war impinged on the book, TheGander. I hadn't thought about it. They would really only have been picking up after it. As a previous poster mentioned, it would have had an impact on relations in a small town, if people had been in the resistance or not.

“Well, there's plenty of money in tights!“

Stockings in those days!

Oops! Thanks 😄

Hi @TheGander, yes, this is a series started last Autumn. More detail (and links) in the opening post, which I copy below:

We started the chat thanks to a thread where we kicked off with a discussion of Penelope Lively, The Road to Lichfield.

Currently we have these separate threads:
November: Anita Brookner, A Start in Life
December: Margaret Drabble: A Summer Bird-Cage
January: Elizabeth Jane Howard, The Beautiful Visit.

And this current one for February: Dorothy Whipple, Someone at a Distance.

And just to add to @frustratedacademic's post, our next book is Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day, and I'll open the thread for that on 1 March.