📚The Mumsnet 'Rather Dated' Book Group - All welcome to join📚

[Antarcticant]

Welcome to the Mumsnet 'Rather Dated' Book Group, where we will be reading and discussing fiction from the 1930s to the 1990s that would have been described as 'contemporary' in its day.

The best introduction to the 'rather dated' concept would be to read the wonderful thread which inspired this group:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/what_were_reading/4596284-rather-dated?reply=119670989

To summarise, a number of posters expressed disappointment that literature of the 20th Century is often dismissed as 'rather dated' because society has moved on from many of the values and lifestyles described.

We decided to create a reading group where the literary merits of such fiction can be appreciated, with any 'rather dated' elements being a point of interest rather than a reason to dismiss a novel.

We will be reading one book a month. Our first book, for September, will be the book that inspired the original thread:

The Road to Lichfield by Penelope Lively

Please do join the thread whether you want to take part in the discussion or just place mark to follow it.

Fellow Rather Dated people, please add anything important I might have missed!

(With huge thanks to ImJustMadAboutSaffron for the original thread and idea )

I did a degree in it thirty ish years ago too, @tobee …. You weren’t at Sheffield by any chance??

No I was at that somewhat less illustrious North London Poly @StellaOlivetti!!

I'm about halfway through BN now, although the landscape is beautifully described by the author it is described a bit too often for me and I'd prefer more of the plot/character interaction. I agree that Mr Dean and Sr Clodagh see each other as intellectual equals, she's just starting to bear his advice in mind.

I've been thinking more and more about how Sister Clodagh became a nun . And how her superiors regard her. Capable but too aware of her abilities? Dorothea has set her to fail at the outset? Clodadh has a (platonic) relationship with Mr Dean because she's more grounded in the secular world than she should be?

Can't stand the overused phrase but it's "the journey" that the nuns go on; Clodagh most evidently, that I find interesting. But I'm hindered in my thinking. What are conventions of the time versus what are conventions for those of a religious order. Readers of the time of the book's release would have a different understanding.

@tobee nothing at all illustrious about Sheffield in the 1980s!

@tobee as far as the actual convent goes, to me, the nuns do seem like quite a slack bunch, to be honest! Disclaimer: I have no religious faith at all so I only know what I’ve observed and read about, but thinking about - say - The Nun’s Story, the novel that was filmed with Audrey Hepburn in the lead role, the discipline seemed considerably harsher. And she was in a working order; she was a nurse who interacted with a community (I seem to remember there’s a similar storyline about treating a baby who dies, or am I misremembering?).

The nuns in Black Narcissus seem surprisingly ‘worldly’ to me in their speech and actions. And they realise it when Sister Adela arrives.

Yes they do

It’s an interesting companion read to In the House of Brede which very well shows the tensions between the secular and religious life and the protocols and traditions that are put in place to manage these tensions. The head of the convent has to be really careful about what jobs she gives each member and that they don’t get too attached or comfortable in one position as this promotes complacency and laziness. Instead she will sometimes put people in the jobs they like least as a way of encouraging what we would call mindfulness of their task. There are exceptions to this for old or less able nuns. In BN they are all immediately allowed to take up their own choice of roles and indulge themselves in them - enjoying the teaching, nursing or gardening in quite a worldly way, without the contemplation of their own devotion and service. In that respect Mr Dean is actually following more of a vocation as he does a lot that he doesn’t enjoy but sees as service to the local people and to the estate.

I never thought of it like that. I thought it would make more sense if they worked to their strengths and kept to what they were good at to make the venture a success. I thought they had it hard enough in the book, to be honest. I don't think I would make good nun material, not as a missionary anyway. I was feeling sorry for them all on their lenten diet of rice and beans.

I was thinking back to the nuns I had in school, nuns I have known (Nuns I Have Known). In fun, these are some of their names; Sr. Clement, Sr. Pius, Sr. Reginald (Reggie), Sr. Cyril. My mother had Sr. Peter, Sr. Ambrose and Sr. Colombière (known as Clumsy Bear). Sr. Cyril must have pulled the short straw getting that name. Maybe that's why she was always grumpy :)

There were only five of them: I thought they must have been working pretty hard, even with the servants’ help.

My favourite character was Ayah: she’d seen it all, and was never at a loss for what to do.

Forgive my ignorance, but how do nuns get their names? Do they choose?

Did Sr Clodagh put them on the Lenten diet out of guilt/trying to be better nuns?

I found this on a quick google I think there might be different answers for different orders but:-

anunslife.org/how-to-become-a-nun/what-is-the-reasoning-behind-a-nun-or-sister-choosing-a-religious-name

And this is a catholic order

Thanks for the link tobee.
That's what I always thought.

Did Sr Clodagh put them on the Lenten diet out of guilt/trying to be better
nuns?

As I said, I’m not a Catholic but I believe it’s usual if you’re observant to avoid meat on certain days in Lent, so I expect nuns would definitely be eating Lenten fare anyway - and Sister Clodagh was trying desperately to reimpose discipline, hence going above and beyond with wall-to-wall lentils!

Re name-changes, it’s interesting that they evidently kept their own names.

I think Sr. Clodagh was trying to impose discipline too. There was a suggestion that it was tougher than usual, I think.

Guess where I am?

Give us a clue, @ImJustMadAboutSaffron 😂

Oh that's a lovely display!

Excellent ImJustMadAboutSaffron!
I don't know...anywhere near Lichfield?😅

I'm abit late with my comments as I've been on a lovely break - interesting reading everyone's comments. Like others I took a while to get into the novel, while it evoked a good atmosphere it seemed a little disjointed and I have trouble keeping up with all the nuns names. However once the nuns settled, so did my reading of it and I ended up loving this.

I had seen the film so knew the order was going to fail but I liked how it was a build up of lots of small events like the design of the church, the gardener wanting expensive unsuitable flowers etc so that lead towards the failure.

Yes bang in the centre! This is the window display in Waterstones.

Ha ha lucky guess 😄

Good marketing!

I'm late to commenting and only just catching up on all of your insightful and interesting thoughts. I finished a couple of days after the 25th, but then DD got ill so I've been out of action for a while.

I won't cover old ground except to say that I agree with all of your points, particularly @StellaOlivetti 's comment about the place defeating the nuns with its beauty, sensuality and otherness. That's spot on, and just what I was thinking but couldn't articulate to myself when reading.

My copy said "the haunting classic" on the front cover. I wouldn't say haunting, exactly. More, unsettling. Disquieting. I too might seek out the film if I can.

As an aside, I very much identified with Sr. Philippa and her battle with gardening practicality vs desire to grow wonderful plants that aren't really suited to the conditions. I have that problem in my garden too. It's an oddly emotionally stressful situation: wanting to grow plants that you don't have the space, soil, or light for, and I think RG got that tense preoccupation with it just right.

Is A Start in Life our next book?