📚The Mumsnet 'Rather Dated' Book Group - All welcome to join📚

[Antarcticant]

Welcome to the Mumsnet 'Rather Dated' Book Group, where we will be reading and discussing fiction from the 1930s to the 1990s that would have been described as 'contemporary' in its day.

The best introduction to the 'rather dated' concept would be to read the wonderful thread which inspired this group:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/what_were_reading/4596284-rather-dated?reply=119670989

To summarise, a number of posters expressed disappointment that literature of the 20th Century is often dismissed as 'rather dated' because society has moved on from many of the values and lifestyles described.

We decided to create a reading group where the literary merits of such fiction can be appreciated, with any 'rather dated' elements being a point of interest rather than a reason to dismiss a novel.

We will be reading one book a month. Our first book, for September, will be the book that inspired the original thread:

The Road to Lichfield by Penelope Lively

Please do join the thread whether you want to take part in the discussion or just place mark to follow it.

Fellow Rather Dated people, please add anything important I might have missed!

(With huge thanks to ImJustMadAboutSaffron for the original thread and idea )

Ooh I've finished already! When are we allowed to discuss it? I thought it was the 24th? Can't remember

Have just ordered A Start in Life for £2 on eBay!

It's from today!

Hello all. Happy discussion day!

PhloxOfSheep here. I've had a NC since last posting.

Just popping on to the thread to say I haven't finished Black Narcissus yet but am hopefully going to have enough time either this evening or tomorrow so will come back then to see everyone's thoughts!

I still haven't read it - must get my skates on

Ok, I'll kick off. I really enjoyed the setting of the book, it was very exotic, and the author used a lot of sensual details - colours, smells etc - which evoked it very effectively. It made me want to visit that part of India. I realised, as someone who didn't grow up in the UK, that I have very little knowledge of the history of the British Empire in India. What was 'The State' referred to? And what was the General's status, had he served in the military or was he a local warlord of some sort?

I found Sister Clodagh to be quite a sympathetic character. The way her history with Con, leading to her motivation to become a nun, was slowly revealed throughout the book had me really feeling for her. I think anyone who has been promoted to a position of leadership at a young age can sympathise with some of the struggles she had, although I didn't think she was quite as harsh as some of the other nuns' comments suggested.

By comparison, Sister Ruth just seemed so unpleasant and unhinged from the beginning that I struggled to feel any real sympathy for her.

As was mentioned up thread, I found some of the dialogue and the interactions between the characters a bit mystifying. What was the question that Sister Clodagh was dying to ask Mr Dean after he brought Kanchi to her??

Some of the descriptions of the local people were definitely a bit dated, bordering on racist, although I did enjoy the character of Dilip.

Hi all! <places lemon meringue pie on the table> This was an enjoyable read. It was all about the location for me too; I was quite enthralled. And the combination of characters all trying to get along on that wild and remote rocky outcrop in the Himalayan mountains. I thought it sounded like an incredibly tall order from the outset. Five women and whatever help that Mr. Dean might provide to renovate that old building! Sr. Philippa was doing the work of two people at least. It looked incredibly draughty in the film too. You couldn't ever get warm!

I think that there were cracks at the start which became more and more apparent as the story went on. 'Unhinged' describes Sr. Ruth perfectly. I think that Sr. Clodagh wasn't ready for such a big responsibility. The wildness of the landscape and interaction with the natives was overwhelming for her. She matured as a result of the experience.

That question was from Mr. Dean. I think he was wondering if Sr. Clodagh was going to ask him if he had had a relationship with Kanchi. There was a bit of inuendo there. I'm open to correction on that.

I made lots of notes as I read this. I read it really fast by my standards. I found it compelling.

Some of my notes:-

Do you think there’d be a warning?

If it was a set text nowadays.

What bits would we miss in 2022?

The social niceties. Were they down to the era or because they were nuns?

Quite a few mentions of the Sinai - Japanese war.

All the way through there was a sense of happiness or optimism swiftly followed by a check - one recurring was Mr Dean being "nice" and then "not nice" plus feedback from the nun's superiors.

Strange distinction in time conversation with one character and straight into next one sone time later p.152 in my copy Also many little flashbacks

Wonder what inspired RG? Have not read the introduction but know of her connection to India. But what inspired the story?

I found the contrasts and links between the nuns and Mr Dean and the "natives" interestingly drawn

I loved the line "Mr Dean's dangerous meekness ". There were lots of paradoxes like that.

I think the narrative of the book is highly cinematic.

I'm really glad we've chosen these two books because of their differences. The "rather dated" of BN much more obvious.

Oh and me and the film being "a hard watch" I was trying to not give away the plot. But also, I first saw this film when I was less than 10 (and I was quite easily scared). Powell and Pressburger certainly upped the gothic horror over the drama, especially with Jack Cardiff cinematography! All the stuff with Sister Ruth revealing her madness disturbed me when I first saw it. The death of Sister Ruth (iirc) was much more the dramatic climax and her death freaked me out!!

I haven't seen the entire film for ages. It's likely when it was on repeatedly in my childhood I'd have watched some of it and then gone and done cartwheels in the garden to avoid seeing the denouement again!!!!

Sorry my notes above are badly edited

"I found the contrasts and links between the nuns and Mr Dean and the "natives" interestingly drawn"

What I mean by that is that Mr Dean is sort of a halfway between the two. And the audacity of Church of England and the empire to interfere and teach the natives generally but the limitations of their doing so in the book.

@IsFuzzyBeagMise yes I did think that was probably what was meant, but I felt it wasn’t as clear as the author intended. I wasn’t sure how the relationship between Mr Dean and Sr Clodagh was meant to be read, there was definitely some sort of frisson there but was it sexual/romantic tension, I’m not sure. Sr Ruth clearly interprets it that way, but Mr Dean’s denial felt genuine. Perhaps more a battle of competing philosophies, Mr Dean has ‘gone native’ and thrives whereas Sr Clodagh is trying to maintain the imported traditions and ultimately fails. As seen in the argument over the chapel design. Is it an implied criticism of the British approach in India?

I’d never heard of the film before now, I really want to see it!

Hi @IceandIndigo that's how I read the relationship between Sr. Clodagh and Mr. Dean. I think you have described it very well. He was her equal in many ways even though they had opposing philosophies. He was wiser than she was and he warned her from the outset that he would see them lasting until the rains came.

I loved the description of his temple. More open and welcoming, more in keeping with its environment. They couldn't have adopted his plans though. It would have been too alien and not in keeping with their faith. It would have been making a concession to him if they had.

Maybe you could say this is an implied criticism of British rule in India. I'm loathe to comment too much on it as I'm not British and I don't know the history especially well. Perhaps it was short-sighted of them to insist on doing things their way and it was never going to work. He was very adamant too that they shouldn't treat very sick patients as it could go wrong (and it did).

Mr Dean enjoys Sr Clodagh’s company because he is socially really isolated. There is nobody nearby who he can converse with in any sort of candour or on the same level - they’re either employed by him, of a completely different social status or culturally completely removed. Although he gets along with the locals he is never going to be able to have any sort of intellectual discussion with them, and even if he did they wouldn’t feel able to rebut or stand up to him. Her unique position in the society means he has the rare opportunity to clash with someone who can actually provide some resistance. I think there is something of a sexual frisson but only to the extent that many male/female friendships have. I don’t think that’s the motivator for either of them.

Godden intentionally draws Mr Dean as so different to the nuns at first in order to draw attention to the way that those with unusual social positions can find common ground.

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's comments. I think the General was one of the leaders of the Indian Princely States which were part of the British Raj and helped to facilitate British rule (by acting as intermediaries in return for concessions for themselves). I assumed that RG was commenting on the futility of colonial rule, and how local people were in many cases entirely impervious to colonial attempts to change their cultural practices, religion and so on.

I really enjoyed reading it. Rumer Godden does have an idiosyncratic style, I think, especially with dialogue, which makes it hard sometimes to see who’s speaking. I’ve noticed it before in her writing. I’d not seen the film, and so had no idea what to expect. I thought that as a study in repression, and closeted community, it was very good. It actually reminded me of The Lord of the Flies, which probably sounds a stretch, but it was the sense of everything unravelling. And she is a much more lyrical descriptive writer than Penelope Lively, and her description of the flowers and weather etc were beautiful, painterly really. I read once that she was brought up in India and England as a child and spent the rest of her life going between the two, constantly homesick for wherever she was not. I agree that the rather dated-ness stems mostly from some aspects of the depiction of the Indian characters. And I also agree about the tension between Clodagh and Mr Dean, it may have been sexual but I think was mostly the clash between his easy acceptance of “going native” and the desire of the nuns to recreate their traditions in this new (and threatening) place. The bit when the baby died I found shocking.

Thanks for that insight, MotherofPearl.

I thought it was interesting how very early on the nuns became transfixed by the beauty of the place. It seemed to cast a spell on them. The wildness of the place challenged them to maintain their discipline and it eroded their resolve. It brought their insecurities to the fore. They persisted in calling it Mopu rather than St. Faith's which is very telling.

There was a very strong dreamy feel to the book. And Sister Clodagh, so capable in many ways, and yet constantly being reminded of Con. Not a nun for the best reasons. How much better is it that RG doesn't give Clodagh and Mr Dean a love scene.

Incidentally, carrying on with my book cover interest, I googled some. This film poster one is stylish, and reminiscent of German expressionism, but bit of a spoiler alert!

Definitely tobee!* *It would have weakened the book.

Ooh, that's good (the poster).

Although I love this book cover:-

Whoops

That's really beautiful.

That book cover and a poster are both so evocative.

I agree about the dreamlike atmosphere in the book and the nuns - especially Sr. Clodagh - being under the spell of the place.