War and Peace readalong thread 2022 - thread 3

[VikingNorthUtsire]

Welcome to the third thread. Please see the OP in threads 1 or 2 for the full info.on the readalong, links to different editions and translations, blog posts, etc.

I think most of us are established now so for this post I'll just re-shsre the reading schedule

Different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Hey BakeOff, please don't worry about that; it wasn't a spoiler or anything major. I didn't mean to make you feel awkward.

I thought the same about the mysterious woman. He was deflecting away from the misery of Platon's death by looking back on happier times.

We are nearly at the end of another section! Two chapters left.

11/11/22

Volume IV, Part 3, Chapter 18

Tolstoy criticizes historians who portray Napoleonn_’s retreat as glorious.

I've just caught up after falling behind for more than a month. I've missed this thread, and the chapter a day routine -- I've felt less sane without it. I'm so happy to have caught up again.

Everyone's posts about the death of Petya and the death of Platon are amazingly insightful. Pierre has been through so much and seen so many terrible things, I can't quite get my head round it. I know he has changed spiritually due to the events he has witnessed, but I keep thinking of trauma as well. It seems to me a classic effect of trauma that he cannot comprehend that Platon is being killed while it is actually happening; he is numb and dissociating.

I found the last statement of this chapter very powerful: "And there is no greatness where there is no simplicity, goodness, and truth." Out of context it might sound like a platitude, but given everything that has come before, it feels like Tolstoy has earnt it.

YES though to being fed up with the endlessly reiterated explanations about how history has no single governing cause. FFS Tolstoy, enough already!

And I can't believe Schmoop just gave up before the book ended. Shocking! How dare they?!😆

I'm looking forward to catching up with some women characters again; this war stretch has been LONG.

Also, I'm already starting to feel sad that the end of the book is so (relatively) close. I don't want it to end 😟

It does feel appropriate that the day I've managed to catch up with all these war chapters is Remembrance Day. I suspect our Leo would be wearing a white poppy.

It's good to see you back again cassandre and yes, I thought that statement was profound too.* *

12/11/22

Volume IV, Part 3, Chapter 19

Although the Russians won the war, they suffered massive losses because of their relentless pursuit of Napoleon’s retreating troops.

Analysis
For the first time, we see Pyotr Rostov in military action, and the result is devastatingly tragic. It is useful to compare Pyotr’s experience of war with those of the characters who have gone before him: Nikolai Rostovv_, Prince Andrei, and Pierre. Unlike the other three men, Pyotr is never really disillusioned about the violence of war. He participates in battles, but he experiences them like the child he is. For him, armed conflict is full of excitement, and he does not comprehend the violence that surrounds him. For the other three characters, war inspires maturity.
Why, then, is Pyotr different? There are, after all, some signs that he changes over time. He is terrified when he infiltrates the French encampment with Dolokhov. Moreover, war inspires empathy in him for the imprisoned French drummer boy (although Tolstoy frames this as a kind of regression – Pyotr identifies with the drummer boy because he is a child himself). The reason for his relative stasis may be his status as a tragic symbol. He is less a fully-fledged character than he is a final manifestation of war’s carnage. The fact that he does have compassion (as all in the Rostov family, save maybe Vera, seem to have) makes his inability to appreciate the severity of war all the more tragic. Dolokhov, too, enjoys these risks, but we know him to be a cad, a fact reinforced by his lack of concern over the boy's death.
In this section, Tolstoy continues to portray French as a language of deceit. Dolokhov uses his excellent French skills to deceive the soldiers and pass himself off as one of them. In the previous section, Hélène Bezukhov tries to discuss her plans to remarry with her friends, but she cannot find the right words to talk about it in Russian and must switch to French to get her point across.
Indiscretion is another motif in these chapters. The French reveal secrets to Dolokhov and Pyotr, and Pyotr immediately tells a Cossack “in detail, not only about his ride, but also why he had gone and why he thought it was better to risk his life than to act any old way” (1053). Indiscretion’s repeated appearances tie into the novel’s thematic exploration of gossip – indiscretion, after all, is what allows gossip to happen, even if the communications we see in this section don’t fall under the normal definition of gossip.
The theme of indiscretion also can be used to understand the military strategies that Tolstoy seems to find so foolish. The French pursuit of the Russians is certainly understandable from a human standpoint, but it nevertheless was a tactical blunder that cost more lives from an already distraught nation. Poor choices, driven by our baser emotions like revenge and hatred, the very emotions that help war to spread in the first place, are something Tolstoy both sadly disapproves of and yet seems to expect.
Tolstoy bookends this section with lengthy critiques of military strategy and conventional historiography. This structure has not been used for any other section, and it evokes the argumentative essay. Tolstoy introduces his argument – that war is never glorious, a fact overlooked by historians – and then uses the events of Denisov’s attack to illustrate his point. Just as in an essay, he concludes the section by summarizing his argument in even clearer terms, and explaining how the examples fit into it.
Finally, Pierre's growth continues in this chapter, when he begins to more fully appreciate the depths of suffering. However, these realizations do not change his way of thinking, but instead merely force it to a further insight: all one requires is his basic needs fulfilled. It is a physical expression of the spiritual simplicity he has learned in his captivity.

That’s interesting about French being used as ‘a language of deceit’ Desdemona. I’ve been wondering if I’ve been missing some of the texture as mine is nearly all English with just the occasional French phrase translated in footnotes - and I don’t get the ‘she said in French’ or ‘she said in Russian’. Are those of you who are reading bilingual editions finding it adds nuance?

@CornishLizard yes definitely, it shifts the perspective. It also adds to the intention or character description, if they’re choosing to speak French, especially in the salon, it’s a social performance, only spoken by the likes of Pierre etc. Thinking of Ippolit here. I also think it shows up the difference in suffering more, the ones who speak French suffer less (in general, Pierre obviously has a horrid time as a prisoner but with his Parisian accent has a lovely dinner with that French soldier), they escape and flee. It’s a huge class divide.

As always I'm grateful to you Desdamona for posting the gradesaver summaries. Today is an example of how the daily ones are sometimes not very good, while the longer analyses are brilliant! I mean, the summary of today's chapter isn't technically wrong, but that wasn't the main idea of the chapter IMO. The longer analysis, on the other hand, makes lots of interesting points to mull over.

Interesting question about the French, CornishLizard. Bakeoff, that's a good point about the ability to speak French being a marker of social class.

I switched translations early on from the Briggs to a more traditional one, even though I really liked Briggs, because I didn't want to miss out on the French. I agree that the idea of French as the language of deceit is intriguing, but at this point in the text, even more simply, I would say that it is the language of the enemy. We are far away from the world of salon and in the battlefield, so French pops up primarily when the French are communicating with each other. For example, the letter from the French general Berthier to Napoleon in chapter 16 is in French, and seems like a real historical document for that reason (I presume it was a real historical document?). In the war sections, these bits that are in French are a reminder of the foreignness of the French. The Russian troops are all speaking Russian.

Dolokhov's ability to speak fluent French with no trace of an accent does seem to be another mark of his villainy!

Thanks cassandre you're welcome.

As always I'm grateful to you Desdamona for posting the gradesaver summaries.
Yes, a big thank you from me too!

And from me too Desdamona. That was a really good analysis, particularly in discussing Petya's character. I think that BakeOff remarked on Petya's good nature before, that he was generous like most of his family.

I never thought of French as the language of deceit in the context of the novel. I agree with BakeOff that it's a marker of class and wealth and I also think that because French is the language of the enemy it includes deception.

Thanks all

13/11/22

Volume IV, Part 4, Chapter 1

Natasha and Princess Marya support each other as they mourn Prince Andrei’s death. Natasha is about to move back to Moscow with Princess Marya when they get a letter telling them that Pyotr has died too.

Thanks cassandre and Bakeoff, really interesting points about French/Russian language.

So we’re now starting the last section before the epilogues! I’ve found these last few quite hard work so hoping for more drawing room politicking again.

I felt sorry for Natasha, torturing herself with recriminations over what she said or did not say to Andrei.

Chapter two is a difficult read. Poor Rostovs :(

The BBC adaptation isn’t available on iPlayer how are we meant to watch it at Christmas? www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p039wcdk

There is a DVD on Amazon!

I don’t have players but it is on Apple TV for £12.99. I might also finally get an Amazon prime free trial, maybe this is the must see I’ve been waiting for :)

I'll look up Netflix later. There might be an adaptation on there.

I'm not in the UK so it might not be the same but we have it on Now/Sky.

14/11/22

Volume IV, Part 4, Chapter 2

Countess Rostovv_ is hysterical when she finds out her youngest son is dead.

Echoing everyone's thanks for the Gradesaver summaries, Desdemona... really help me keep track of where I'm supposed to be!

Today's chapter made me feel really sorry for Natasha... she has a lot put on her to help support her mum despite her recent loss. Does sound like she gets a kick out of it (c'mon, Natasha - I was starting to like you!) but its all too much for someone so young.

I like the sound of hers and Marya's friendship though - they sound good for each other. Did make me smile a little when he was saying how Natasha now admires Marya's piousness - wasn't N all about the church not that long ago? Still, I liked that bit and was glad to see the two girls head back to Moscow together!

Thanks SanFran, I'm late today!

15/11/22

Volume IV, Part 4, Chapter 3

The loss of her son takes a major toll on Countess Rostov’s health and Natasha nurses her. Oddly, Pyotr’s death has a positive effect on Natasha. Caring for her mother rejuvenates her, and she develops a close friendship with Princess Marya.