Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

What we're reading

Find your new favourite book or recommend one on our Book forum.

Regiment of Women - Clemence Dane

37 replies

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 25/10/2016 16:45

Proposal scenes and the subversion of heternormative hegemony in 20th century girls' school story fiction

Ahem. This thread is to discuss any and all matters relating to Regiment of Women. I shan't include any spoilers in this opening post, but they will start to come thick and fast thereafter.

To anyone who is not a member of the Chalet School quiche, please come in and don't mind us - anyone who has read or fancies reading RoW is very welcome!

I'm just going to post this thread and then anyone currently reading or re-reading can pop in for serious discussion at their leisure.

OP posts:
NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 01/11/2016 20:08

Though arguably EBD does take up the theme of working too hard making girls emotional and overwrought, albeit without the complexity or extremes of Louise. Even OOAO herself has a dose of it!
That's all true, but it's on a different scale, isn't it? Mary-Lou's brief fit of overwork is charmingly child-like - she wants to catch up with Clem so they can be in the same form - and (of course, this being the CS) promptly squashed. For Louise, it is/becomes a permanent feature of her character, and I can't imagine a stern word from Matey fixing that - Louise would know how to make all the right noises to get her off her back, and then carry on as before working herself into the ground. There is absolutely no way a Chalet girl would ever have jumped.

I did get to thinking a little about the ill-fated adoration for a teacher thing. The other instance that came to mind most powerfully was actually Enid Blyton - is it Gwendoline in MT, who idolises a beautiful but cruel mistress until she hears her bitching about her in the staff room?
Unsurprisingly, EBD seems to mostly give all such affections a very wide berth (even though she is very clear that her staff are almost invariably inspirational, well-liked, good-looking and perfect poppets out of lessons) - I can only think of Elizabeth Arnett's admiration of Gillian Linton, which only amounts to a copied hairstyle and an improvement in Elizabeth's behaviour (upstanding moral CS staff, of course).

I have to confess I have pretty much no idea how to identify good writing. Grin I found it amusing in places, and I think the seedlings line is quite deliberately funny (not sure whether Emily read it that way too, or not) - it seems to me like a mockery of the superficially-involved man and his superficially-involved feelings.
There is a degree of Victorian melodrama I find quite hard to take sensibly - probably exacerbated by the rather play-like structure of parts of it (especially the last few scenes, which are filled with dramatic speeches and heavy-laden with Meaning - I do enjoy these bits, but it's definitely the bold-writ style of a play rather than the subtlety of a novel). Somehow similar-feeling, in Legend, is the way the characters seem to be able to remember and quote verbatim pages-long speeches from years earlier - I suppose the sense of similarity is that this is the dramatic speech which has to be included, even if there's something slightly improbable about it. And I do agree that something becomes confused in the second half, which is disappointing. I am trying to decide whether there might be a better way of telling it which basically excluded Roger completely: you could still have Alwynne sent away to recuperate and discovering the wonders of co-ed schooling, and ultimately leaving to work there instead; she'd still find the scales falling from her eyes re Clare's behaviour towards her - the combination of time away, the extremes of Clare's behaviour when she returns, the escape option of the other school, her own increasing maturity and exposure to other people (who need not be a romantic interest), and the ongoing impact of Louise's suicide are all sufficient between them to see to that. Roger's stupid 'insights' serve no purpose. On the one hand, I embrace the laughably weak presentation of marriage and heteronormativity his character results in - on the other, I think it would make a much stronger story generally if he didn't exist.

Final thought - I forget whether I mentioned this on the other thread, but I'm struck at similarities between the relationship between Alwynne and Clare, and that between Hilary and Eleanor in Lady of Letters by Josephine Elder. Sort of. Eleanor is much, much more likeable than Clare actually she reminds me very very much of an ex of mine, in the early parts of the story but there are certainly aspects which feel uncomfortably close later on: the clinging and the refusal to allow Alwynne/Hilary to grow; the inability to get on with men, and therefore the implication that she is the bad sort of spinster; the transition from idolised to controlling to pitied. Lady of Letters, it goes without saying, also ends with a fairly unconvincing hetero pairing-off.

morningtoncrescent62 · 03/11/2016 10:25

And I do agree that something becomes confused in the second half, which is disappointing. I am trying to decide whether there might be a better way of telling it which basically excluded Roger completely

I've reached the part where Roger comes to Utterbridge and I'm struck by how absolutely hateful I'm finding him. I can feel sympathy for Clare, Alwyne and Elsbeth, but none at all for Roger - I just think he's a thoroughly arrogant, superior, patronising, self-satisfied prig who thinks he knows best about everything and everyone - in short, a rich, white man brought up in Edwardian times to know that he and his kind run the world. He's making my blood boil! So, the conversation when he waylays Alwyne on her way back to Elsbeth, and she starts talking about how claustrophobic the girls' school is - well, what I think we're seeing is the way that women of the time came to internalise male perceptions of them. What in the 1980s we would have called internalised oppression. What we've seen very well illustrated in the story so far is just how limiting the options open to women were at the time: teaching, marriage or looking after someone else's children if you were 'lucky'. What I took from this conversation was a demonstration of how those limited possibilities combined with a demeaning view of women held by the powerful class in society (rich white men) led to contexts in which women on the one hand had to look to each other for meaningful relationships, and on the other hand found those relationships skewed and distorted because of the way they were constructed and viewed.

I think if you were to exlude Roger from this scenario, we wouldn't see the process of male domination of women happening before our eyes, which as I'm reading it, is becoming the main thing for me. After all, the male gaze was inescapable then and now? discuss so it makes sense that it should be embodied by an actual man. Of course, if you were after escapism, you'd write it differently, as a world where women's lives and sense of themselves weren't so entirely subject to male domination - so you could have a happy Roger-free ending. That would be a different book, however. And much as I'm finding Roger enraging this time round, I'm reading the second half as an exploration of the extent to which the male gaze produces and constrains what appear to be entirely feminised worlds, and the extent to which women of the time could resist that production. So I'm far from finding it disappointing.

I haven't read Legend - I'm not even sure what it is though I've a feeling I should know. I think I have Lady of Letters on a bookshelf somewhere so it should probably be my next read. Although the programme on Virago (thanks, EmilyAlice for telling us about it) has made me go back to my Virago shelves as well - I used to love a book by Zoe Fairbairns called Benefits which I have a feeling (from how I've remembered it) would be very relevant now, so I want to read that again. And of course Maya Angelou's autobiographical series. So many books, so little time!

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 03/11/2016 12:01

Domination of the male gaze/internalised oppression - I think to me, the title itself is suggestive of CD's aim. The fact that the book starts with the quote from John Knox about "this monstrous regiment of women", which is designed to irritate modern women (whether in 1914 or 2016), but then actually, the conclusions seem to be that co-education and marriage are the ways forward to stop girls and women descending into emotional/hysterical vampiric wrecks...surely that can't have been the conclusion CD was intending to draw! Are we supposed to feel sorry for Clare - she is eventually overthrown by the patriarchy/heteronormative hegemony - while accepting that her faults are the result of her having to compress her powers within a sphere to which she was utterly unsuited? Because I don't think that comes through strongly enough - Clare is painted pretty blackly in a lot of ways and it's hard to sympathise with someone who treats a 13 year old so badly that they commit suicide.

Or had Clemence Dane herself had experience of a similar claustrophobic environment and did she, in fact, believe that women and men should have more fraternal, platonic interaction than they did in those days? I can see coming out of the hothouse of a girls' seminary and wanting to have what EBD describes as 'good-fellowship' with men and to be allowed to work alongside them creating a space that allowed for boys and girls to flourish together. I personally believe in co-education and not shutting one sex off from the other throughout their formative years. What I don't understand is where Dane was going with the Roger/Alwynne "romance", or with Elsbeth's interventions with Clare.

OP posts:
NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 12/11/2016 07:30

Have just caught up on both your interesting posts, and also this interesting blog post: garbohateshermeneutics.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/clemence-dane-and-lesbian.html?m=1

On the co-ed thing, I think she clearly does have a big big thing about the importance of this (quite possibly borne of personal experience) and perhaps that's the entire point of ROW. Otoh, that seems to be a massive melodrama if it is the case, and taking everything all together I don't think it is all that's going on there for her. A story simply about the perils of single-sex environments and how they enable women like Clare to flourish and damage would read like the one I suggested above - in the absence of Roger. His presence contributes a different story. The blog I linked above references CD's collection of feminist essays (which I really want to read, but I think that's going to have to be a BL trip) and says that there's one essay which is pretty intense and deals with exactly that, but there's also another which seems to argue a sort of lesbian separatist angle... So perhaps some of this is more provocative than prescriptive. Or perhaps she just hadn't worked things out consistently herself, and that's why some of ROW feels confusing in terms of what she's actually trying to say. Or possibly also this is simply the standard confusion because the author is a closeted and/or self-loathing lesbian - it has definite shades of that, IMO.

On Roger: I can't seem to c&p from that blog, but she's caught something I totally missed, on Elsbeth and Roger becoming sort of parents to Alwynne together. I'd seen the weird half-son half-romantic role Roger clearly stood in for Elsbeth, as she engineers his marriage to Alwynne, but hadn't quite seen his role to A as therefore semi father, which is interesting in terms of how it exacerbates (or comments on) the male Edwardian arrogance as per mornington's post above.
Legend is also interesting to consider alongside this because the virtues (or not) of marriage is one of the big things explored in that. It's not immediately easy to see which views on marriage are CD's (different characters argue different things, and pretty much all the characters are definitely flawed and un-objective - except for the man who is once again superficial and unthinking): marriage ruins a woman's creativity and her internal life; marriage requires a woman to give of herself too generously and for some women this is a waste (for others, not); one character can't believe her friend can possibly fall in love with the boring man she seems to, to the point that she imagines there must have been another lover, the 'real' love who motivates her improbable decisions and informs her novel-writing - another sees that she would exactly fall in love with someone sturdy and reliable and boring. There is more but I'm writing this to a distracting soundtrack of CBeebies. On balance I came away from it suspecting CD's personal position towards marriage was one of distaste but that might just be my projection and certainly she's acknowledging and validating (I think - although it is clear that none of these characters are supposed to be 'always right' or particularly admirable) a wide range of views on it.

On Clare: I always come back to Clare because she is the one who interests me most of all, but she's impossibly complex to me and I think probably that's because she's not supposed to be the main point. (Or is she? She's the only one I notice re-appearing in the central cast of Legend, as Anita who I am even more ready to defend.) I just can't decide what the final scene is about - she could have let the curtain fall on Alwynne's escape to the healthy mixed-sex countryside, or on Elsbeth's crowing over Clare, but she doesn't. Is it that Clare's internal state actually matters? Or is it Clare's ultimate plan for survival that matters - is it that we're supposed to feel horror as she sits and identifies her next 'victim', and appreciate that this warped dynamic continues for as long as the majority of the educational system separates boys and girls in their formative years?

mornington, do please read Lady of Letters at some point. I liked it very much (bits of it more than others) but I don't know anyone else who has read it and it must be discussed! I think it covers a lot of similar subject matter to ROW.

morningtoncrescent62 · 16/11/2016 19:06

Thanks for posting the blog, Nell - and I'd missed the mother-and-father aspect with Elspeth and Roger too. I'd seen it more as Roger collecting what he saw as his twittering set of helpless females around him, and it was another thing that made me angry with him, because from what we see of Elspeth, she's pretty capable - she's raised Elspeth on her own, and she holds her own with Clare.

the reader is left with the feeling that Alwynne will be worse off in her married bliss than she was with Clare, whose greatest flaw was her inability to value true love for what is really worth.

I agree completely with this from the blog. Alwyne's an intelligent young woman, and she's been condemmed to a life of being Roger's little toy, to be petted and cossetted while she's young enough, and then (presumably) to be the little wife at home, looking after the children and running the house, while he goes off and does his thing wherever he wants, wherever that may be. And an interesting point about Clare's greatest flaw. I do wonder how lesbian women learned to love and be loved when until very recently they would have had little or no access to any kinds of role models for how to go about creating and sustaining loving sexual relationships. I know that for an educated middle-class woman there would have been some reading between the lines of romantic friendship, (at least, if you believe Lilian Faderman's line). But it would still have been massively counter-culture, and very hard to work out that what you felt for another woman really was love, not to hate yourself for wanting to express that love sexually (though it's unclear to me whether Clare has worked that one out), and above all, probably not being able to talk about what we'd now call your relationship (and what Clare might have thought of as a passionate friendship) with friends who would help you negotiate your feelings. It's not hard to imagine how you would become warped by that, with your innermost desires constantly turned inwards. Maybe that's the metaphor for girls-only education? Is CD trying to warn us about the damage caused by excessive introspection when the only healthy relationships recognised by society are mixed-sex ones, and same-sex love necessarily becomes a hot-house, not because women (or men) left to their own devices are essentially introspective, but because societal norms force them into that shape?

I don't think I can always tell when I'm finding all sorts of complex explanations simply to justify my liking for Clare - because as a character I do like her even though I can see all sorts of reasons why I'm apparently not supposed to!

(The downfall of the lesbian vampire is not really her many manipulations, which are something of a red herring, but her propensity to hold love too cheaply.)

I'm not sure I quite get what this means. In what way are her manipulations a red herring? Aren't they part and parcel of her holding love too cheaply, and therefore not caring adequately for the well-being of the girls and women she loves?

I'll have a look for Lady of Letters and buy it if it's not sitting on a shelf somewhere. Though I have to warn you, the Virago documentary has sent me back to lots of dimmly-remembered favourites. Last week I read Benefits by Zoe Fairbairns which is the most fascinating read, and took me back to a time (the late 70s, early 80s) when we absolutely didn't know where the New RIght was taking us. Neoliberalism or neoconservatism? ZF leans towards neocon and it's a fascinating take on what might have been. I've finished that now, and onto the truly wonderful I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 16/11/2016 21:30

Yes - I hate Roger for that too, and I also (perhaps unfairly) hate Elsbeth for so eagerly playing along as the poor helpless woman. And I also thought it was absolutely true that Alwynne would have been better off with Clare, but still can't quite decide whether that's me being unreasonably, irrationally, and disproportionately sympathetic towards Clare. Even leaving aside any unintended affection for Clare (and I simply can't decide whether it is unintended, on CD's part), there is a real statement about the inadequacy of Alwynne's 'happily ever after', isn't there? (Isn't there? Am I just reading that because I want it to be there? I suppose it's possible that it's only accidental that the relationship is so unconvincing, but in the context of CD clearly having some well-developed thinking on contemporary feminist issues and female experiences of marriage in particular, I think this is a deliberate comment from her.)

  • Or is it? Is there supposed to be a genuine relief/thrill/romance/happiness to Alwynne suddenly "breaking free" of Clare and rushing to intercept Roger at the train station? Ugh.

I think the thing about the manipulations being a red herring is that the focus shouldn't be on them (i.e. her behaviour and the ways she goes about callously gaining the affections of others) but on the underlying worldview that, as you say, leads to the behaviour. So, it's like a tragic flaw which leads ineluctably to her demise, and looking merely at her actions misses the point. I think. I'm not sure that the manipulations can be separated from the holding love too cheaply either, so perhaps I too am missing the point being made. Maybe it's arguing for a more humanising view of the LV than is sometimes depicted/read - you could read ROW on the basis entirely of Alwynne's experience and accept that Clare is variously the object of desire, the object which stands in the way of her happiness, someone awful who Alwynne witnesses destroying the life of other people around her. I think the many many lesbian/feminist readings of ROW which dismiss it as perpetuating a damaging stereotype are assuming this reading, right?

It's a really interesting point about how on earth women would have been able (or unable) to make sense of their own relationships or feelings, without having any cultural reference points at all, or any of the language around it. Awful. And so damaging. And yet there are still the faintest echoes of it today, I think - I imagine it's still not unusual for the first same-sex relationship one knows 'in the flesh' to be one's own first relationship, which is a strained dynamic to deal with. Not a problem on the same magnitude as then, but still an additional burden to navigate with often limited sympathy from friends and family. Certainly I think the damaging nature of excessive LGB introspection is still a recognisable phenomenon.
And then of course there are these snippets of evidence of apparently quite self-accepting and very self-aware lesbianism at various points in time - Ann Lister is one obvious example, Natalie Barney another. I remember reading a biography of Una Troubridge which remarked that while Radclyffe Hall spent a lot of time confessing about contacting the dead (and trying to find a sympathetic confessor in relation to this particular sin), she never seemed to feel it necessary to confess her lesbianism, which interested me. It's very very difficult to imagine how much these experiences were perfectly normal vs completely unheard-of.

With reference to Clare in particular, I think there are hints that she has some awareness of herself as a lesbian (although not in those words): in the part where Elsbeth comes to ask her to give Alwynne up to Roger, when she points out that there are other/better things in life than marriage, and when she suggests that she will offer Alwynne all that Roger offers her, and that Alwynne will prefer her offer. There's also something about the way that she runs away after first kissing Alwynne... On the other hand, I'm sure there is a comment somewhere about Elsbeth knowing what both Alwynne and Clare feel better than either of them do, which rather undermines that argument. Clare is an extremely intelligent woman, who has ample time for introspection, and yet appears to have learned an enormous degree of cognitive dissonance (evidenced in her response to Louise's death). That all fits the picture of being unable or unwilling to deal with her lesbianism. But she also takes quite obvious delight in keeping her thoughts, feelings and intentions hidden - she doesn't really show her hand at all until the very end, at which point it's impossible to determine whether this is her admitting (to Elsbeth and the reader) what she has inwardly known all along, or whether events cause her realisation...

I could see an argument that CD is particularly vexed about the 'unhealthy' atmosphere of single-sex (all single-sex? or just all-girls?) environments because they become a breeding ground for overwrought and emotionally dishonest interrelations. I'm not sure where women like Clare would fit in to the wonderful new world of co-ed schooling: would Clare still be Clare, but in the healthier open air of a mixed school she wouldn't be able to wield the same influence over the pupils as she does over Louise and others? Would Alwynne still appreciate that she is a far more attractive prospect than Roger? Or would Clare herself even be different, if she taught in a mixed school - or would she never choose to be in that environment, would she have taken herself off to the nunnery or something instead? Would Clare never have grown up to be Clare, if she herself had gone to a healthier school... I think CD's passion for co-ed schooling transcends what detail she gives in ROW, and I'm not entirely sure how she ties Clare to it, other than as an exaggerated example of the festering dangerous darkness of it.

I think CD is also trying to say something with regard to Elsbeth having once been Clare's teacher - but I'm not sure what it is. It seems too weird a fact to add in for no purpose, though.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 16/11/2016 21:30

Also - I loved I know why the caged bird sings...

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 22/11/2016 18:41

I tried to quickly summarise ROW to a colleague today (as you do Blush) and surprised myself by telling a version where the whole thing is driven by Elsbeth: Elsbeth's decades-old revenge on Clare; Elsbeth's desperate desire to recast her own life by becoming Roger's mother. I hadn't particularly chosen to think of it in precisely those terms before - Elsbeth seizing her chance to fix Alwynne up with Roger, yes, but not the added revenge angle. The more I think, the fewer redeeming features Elsbeth has...

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 06/12/2016 20:16

I am taking a desperately-needed day off work next week, before my head explodes...

...I appear to have planned to spend it at the BL working on a self-imposed essay of sorts on CD/ROW. Xmas Hmm

morningtoncrescent62 · 19/12/2016 19:30

I appear to have planned to spend it at the BL working on a self-imposed essay of sorts on CD/ROW.

Wish I was close enough to the BL to do that! So has this Great Work come forth?

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 10/01/2017 20:50

Oops - this thread fell off my 'threads I'm on'. Ha! The 'great work' is currently a collection of scribbled-on A3 sheets of paper. I must make something coherent out of it (and indeed this is why I am back here again now).

I threw myself off by reading Lesbian crosswriting in the 1920s by Gay Wachman, which takes the familiar line that ROW is regressive anti-lesbian stuff with no redeeming features and we cannot simply defend it as 'of its time' because look at Sylvia Townsend Warner. Well. The only STW I've read is her diaries, decades later; so now I fret that I need to read Lolly Willowes before I can comment on ROW...

Lolly Willowes (anyone here read it?) has been sitting on the bookshelves, staring accusingly at me, while I've been cleansing my palate with Gladys Mitchell. Tomorrow I need to either start reading it, or start writing my indulgent 'I wanted to do an MA but had to reduce my ambitions to this niche blog post' piece on ROW.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 18/01/2017 06:33

Bump.

Something that didn't really register with me the first couple of times I read ROW, and which I'm consequently struggling with a bit, is the revelation that Clare would have liked to have married. Elsbeth tells Roger this, when they're having that weird date-like supper together, that Clare repulses men and that Elsbeth had seen her looking stranded and bewildered at parties etc when she was younger.

This much alone, id prefer to ignore as projection / Elsbeth missing the point. But Elsbeth brings it up at the end of her final showdown with Clare ("Poor Clare! Are the grapes really so bitter?") - and Clare later acknowledges to herself that Elsbeth's taunt has hit the mark, even though she'd thought nobody knew that.

I don't like this. Grin It upsets my vision of Clare as someone who sticks two fingers up at all that, for all her other great flaws. Any thoughts? Anyone else find this a bit of a weird turn to stomach?

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread