Powder and Patch: Georgette Heyer Book Club Part 6

[DilysPrice]

We're a bit late for this one, but can put it off no longer. Surely everyone who's going to read it has finished it by now: my edition is only 168 pages, and I think that's most of the problem.

IMO there's not enough plot for an actual novel, it feels more like a novella. And the supporting characters seem pure tissue paper too - though they should be good solid Heyer staples. There's a callow young man hopelessly in love with our heroine, there's an ingenue, there's a rakish older uncle, and a wicked older woman. But honestly I can't remember them at all.

OTOH the stuff in Paris with the poetry and the clothes is a lot of fun - I love Heyer's more dandyish heroes, starting with Avon, and her very camp groups of young male friends acting flamboyantly (personal faves are Sherry's friends in Friday's Child).

And rather against my better judgement I like Cleone, even though her infantilisation and lack of agency is a terrible feminist fail. I find her awareness that she's done something silly whilst remaining resolute in her belief that Philip did need to be taught a lesson quite attractive somehow.

So what do you reckon? Is Cleone infuriating or oppressed? Is Philip's Parisian sojourn the best thing about the book?

And which edition do you have? Mine finishes "Oh Cleone - I shall write a sonnet to your wonderful eyes!", which implies that he will retain much of his town gloss, but I think that other editions have them returning to the countryside which seems a shame to me.

I've got your edition Dilys - didn't know there were others!

I'm not too keen on the constant "women just want to be mastered" refrain - and the idea that everything is perfect as soon as Philip rescues her and tells her she's been a silly girl . GH's later heroines seem to be a bit more independent.

That said, I do love the Paris bit and the fun group of friends. I'd like to know more about Maurice's past . I also like the "engaged to several men at once" plot line - wish it had carried on for a bit, I reckon more fun could have been had with that story before it was all sorted out.

Anyone know what "Saperlipopotte" means??

I haven't read it for a while but I remember giggling at the bit where Cleone is betrothed to a few men at once.
Other than that it's not one of my favourites but Philip's bad poetry is mildly entertaining.

right, loins girded, am off to re-read P&P (after confessing that I started IA, and got fed up, so stopped ). I think we've moving off all the ones I can't stand though (except Masqueraders), so things are looking up for the rest of the year .

It feels like an early novel, doesn't it, especially compared to the whodunnit later ones (eg Tollbooth, Ring, Widow).

Although Clo is vastly irritating and unfeminist I think she is probably quite realistic. There is a lovely reference to her having "received a slight education" and she is an obvious product of that. I think this is set under Queen Anne where nicely-brought-up girls have zero options, and where frankly an education was a burden.

Philip is a sulky dick at the beginning, and I agree very Avon-like towards the end. He seems to know it is all nonsense and fluff really, and hasn't given up on his inheritance.

I don't hate the book, it is just kind of insubstantial. Nice period detail showing integrity in research, believable (if not necessarily likeable) characters, just not enough plot threads.

I haven't reread P&P for this (will try to do so when next at my father's where the ancestral GH collection is kept) but I remember it as mannered and insubstantial, as other posters have said.

Has anyone read GH's short story collection Pistols for Two? It was published much later and she'd long lost the arch style by then, but the stories have similar problems. Essentially at her best she is a character-driven novelist and she needs the length of a full novel to develop the characters and their lives, short form just doesn't suit her.

The deal with the last chapter, now that I have looked it up, was that the very first printing (by Mills and Boon!) had a last chpster in which they swan off back to France to take Paris by storm. For all subsequent editions that last chapter was removed, leaving a finale which is brusque in its conclusion even by GH's normal standards.

The standard interpretation is that in the later ending they will retire straight back to Sussex to be country squire and lady, but actually I don't see that at all - the fact that it ends with him planning his terrible poetry again makes me think that they will stay in London for a few years.

Do we not think he is teasing her about the sonnet? Because he sort of keeps her at arms'-length when he is writing execrable poetry for other women.

Francois reminds me of Leonie as Leon the page, not sure why though. Maybe it's the French speech and turns of phrase in English (which I personally can't stand), but anyone else see it?
Not as bad as I remembered, but very obviously an early book. And although I hated the "women want and need to be mastered, just ignore them and take what you want" I did enjoy Aunt Sarah giving Phillip that advice, but telling him it would never have worked with her.
Yet again, it's the supporting characters who have the best lines and are the more developed characters in their own right. I wonder why that is?

Like Juliana and Frederick. "I'd beat her if I were you" and all that. Argh.

Later books have stronger heroines who are "desperately looking for a man to help them" but it evolves into "help them continue to be strong and independent" rather than "take over every single decision". Abby Wendover, Sophy, Arabella, wotsername that marries Captain Jack. The hero only takes over because it's an intolerable burden, not because the heroine is intrinsically feeble.

It's just so interesting to read them in writing order!

Yes, I think that's right, Leonie. The heros/heroines definitely have to be more mainstream and tick a number of boxes, whereas with minor characters she could let her imagination (and sense of humour) run away with her.

For £60 you can buy a copy of P&P with the final chapter photocopied onto A4 sheets according to Amazon.

Have just reread it and must admit to loathing it with a passion. All that boring fawning over clothes, and Philip's transformation from rustic youth to dandy about town is accomplished in about three sentences, when it could have been rather an amusing and sympathetic part of the book. Cleone has the depth of a puddle, and her suitors are puppets pulled on the narrative's strings. And oh God, all that Frenchery and mincingness. The only characters I wouldn't shoot on sight are the older ones, Maurice, Tom and Sally, who at least have a dash of humanity about them.

I feel like I need to read Frederica or The Grand Sophy now to cleanse my palate, but to be honest I know them both virtually by heart so it would be rather superfluous!

I did google extensively but couldn't see it anywhere else sadly. Plus they're all still in copyright so places like Project Gutenberg don't have it nor does the dodgy website I get ebooks from

Am on my phone so difficult to check back, but didn't someone on this bread say they had the last chapter?

Thread not bread obviously

I've never read P+P before as the plot description always put me off. I thought it was ok, but not in the same league as some of her others. It seemed pretty lightweight and a bit rushed. However it was enjoyable enough. Obviously Cleone was annoying but I'm not sure she's an unrealistic impression of a young woman of that time.

I agree with a previous poster that Philip at the end seemed quite like Avon.

Late to the party as usual.

Not much to add except that:

Anyone know what "Saperlipopotte" means??

Apparently, according to a quick Google, it means "goodness me" in a sort of "gadzooks" kind of way. It is used by Captain Haddock in Tintin but is translated as "Blistering Barnacles".

Thank you! Excellent word, I shall have to try to use it in conversation

Gadzooks is pretty great too.

Shall I start off on The Masqueraders?

Oh, I like the Masqueraders. Yet another I can discuss happily without having to re-read because I've read it so many times

I like the father - kind of a more fun version of Avon. All knowing, all planning, but without the sinister element.

Well it now appears to be midnight, so The Masqueraders and Why It Is Excellent and Leonie is Sadly Mistaken will have to wait until tomorrow morning, but I'll do it then I promise.