The Other Boleyn Girl - is it historically accurate? (Slight spoiler alert)

[wombly]

I'm afraid I only saw the film , but was struck by details I didn't know about Tudor history. AFAIK Catherine of Aragon's defence of her position was verbatim in the film. So how about the Boleyn incest stuff? How historically accurate was that?

Jingle, I think you are right. My MiL is a big fan of this period of history and often points out that it is very likely that the marriage (between Arthur and Katherine) was not consummated. Katherine herself gave evidence that she was "still a maid" and as a devout Catholic she would have believed that lying, particularly about such an important matter, would have condemned her eternal soul to Hell.

CaveMum, you know, I'd never considered that Katherine might have been telling the truth about the non-consummation but you've made me think of this in a completely different way! I'm actually a bit .

It's like when I first read Rebecca - I couldn't really work out why it was so crucial to prove that Max DeWinter hadn't killed her as he'd only (only!!!) be imprisoned but, of course, they still had the death penalty when the book was written.

Wandering off topic there... There are times when I am spectacularly thick!

I know what you mean! I'd never even thought of it that way until MiL pointed it out.

She has her uses

There are a lot of myths and half truths surrounding Anne Boleyn and her death. apparently she never had 6 fingers on one hand,that was just made up by people at the time to try and discredit her/brand her a witch.

Also, no one is sure where her body lies in the church of St peter ad vincula in the grounds of the tower of london so I don't think it's been exhumed.

Also, Mary's children were never acknowledged by the king as his and as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, she never got custody of Elizabeth.

I'm only basing this on books i've read on the tudor period (Eric Ives has written a good one). I don't think we'll ever know what really happened. I think anne was treated appallingly just because she knew her own mind and wasn't afraid to speak up in a time when women basically had no rights.

She would've been so proud of her daughter wouldn't she?

NO. It's 'historical fiction'.

There's no evidence that Catherine of Aragon was not telling the truth wrt to the consummation of her marriage to Arthur.

Arthur was well-known to be of weak constitution, often ill, indeed he died months after their marriage.

Further, Catherine was extremely religious and swore many oaths that the marriage was not consummated. If she were lying it would be considered a mortal sin, a very very grave thing to someone living back in that day.

Henry had all written references to Anne painted over or blacked out and never mentioned her again.

Shortly after his incarceration in the Tower, from which he was not to emerge except for his trial and subsequent execution, Sir Thomas Moore was asked if he born Anne, who was influential in his execuation, any ill will. He stated not, and quite rightly predicted she'd come to an end similar to his soon enough.

Henry bitterly regretted having Thomas executed, and held Anne responsible for his own actions.

Admittedly, Anne pissed off a lot of people in positions of power and the power she got did to some extent go to her head.

Similar was Elizabeth Woodvylle, Edward IV's wife, the difference was that Elizabeth was very fertile.

According to David Starkey in his book the SIx Wives of Henry VIII (better than a blockbuster) Anne was accused of adultery with loads of people, including a music master at court who had made a flirty remark to her.

As far as anyone knows, Anne wasn't unfaithful to Henry at all - partic not with her brother. Her crime was to have two miscarriages, the last one of which was a boy. She had to pay somehow.

Henry genuinely thought Anne had bewitched him and wanted her dead.

Incidentally, Anne didn't have six fingers, which I was always told she did. Disappointing eh.

Henry had a habit of picking a wife before his existing wife was out of the way (or her husband).

He started courting Katherine Parr whilst her second husband, Lord Latimer, was still alive, although dying with what appeared to be cancer of some sort.

He was sending her gifts she dared not refuse for fear of angering him.

Poor Katherine was, until Thomas Seymour, forever pinned to men far too old for her. Her mother first married her, age 14, to a widower in his 60s.

One thing that I always felt was not clear in the film or the recent TV series was that Henry and Katherine had been married for almost 20 years before he started divorcing and beheading women half his age. It has been suggested by some historians that he had syphillus and it literally sent him 'mad'.

I was really cross about the rape scene they added to the film, it wasn't in the book and there is no reason to think that Henry raped Ann prior to the marriage. In fact it undermines the rational behind Henry waiting for years to marry Ann if he was merrily raping her on a regular basis.

Poor Ann was an ambitious and intelligent woman who punched above her weight. I doubt she had sex with her brother but then we don't know. The miscarried babies would have been held as proof of her witchcraft and/or that God did not approve the marriage. He was a vile specimin. Has anyone read PG's book which covers Anne of Cleves, Katherine Howard and Katherine Parr? Even accounting for dramatic license - she was fucked (or she wasn't!!!) Trying to conceive and heir with an impotent, gangrenous old man.

It's hard to say, Cadders, because it's recorded, too, that some cases syphilis was successfully treated with mercury (Mary, Queen of Scots' second husband apparently had this treatment and it was successful) back then.

IIRC, Catherine was 23 when she married Henry and they were married for 18 years when all this started coming out. Henry was younger than she.

She had at least 8 children, but of course, only Mary lived to adulthood.

It's unlikely he had syphillis, surely? The chances of producing neurotypical, healthy babies (Elizabeth, Edward) if you have syphillis is low, as I understand it.

cory, I loved that David Starkey book when I was doing A-levels - I quoted it all through my coursework essay until my teacher gently pointed out it might be an idea to cite someone else ... anyone else ...

Btw, re. consummation, there's a really sad quotation from Anne of Cleves when she was asked if the king had slept with her. She said 'Each night, he kisses me and says, 'goodnight, sweetheart', and every morning he kisses me again. Is this not enough?'

I have no idea if that's apocryphal and would love to know!

Sorry I meant Katherine Howard was fucked. I don't think anyone was really expecting an heir by the time KP was on the scene.

True, there is absolutely no evidence of Anne's having been raped or indeed of Henry's having raped anyone.

She conceived quite easily after beginning a sexual relationship with him, hence their need to get married, so it doesn't seem likely he forced himself on her.

I agree that Katherine Howard was doomed from the start. What was she, 16 or so? Yet another pawn of an ambitious family.

Weren't the Howard's and Boleyn's related? I know the Seymour's were an "enemy" of the Boleyn's.

I dont remember who asked, but I have read that Anne was praying silently as she was beheaded and allegedly the cut was so swift and clean that he lips continued to move after her head was severed.

Everytime I watch this film it reminds me how fascinating I find the Tudors and how much more I want to read on the subject!

Alison Weir is the best writer on this subject, I think.

In her books, The Six Wives of Henry VIII and The Lady in the Tower she presents the historical facts as are available, and also through reasoning comes up with the answers to other myths.

Facts AW presents

• AB was never accused of being a witch.

• There is no mention in any contemporary historical document of any of her stillborn babies/miscarriages being deformed.

• AB was accused of adultery with I think six men,including her own brother. All denied it except one, the music teacher, Mark Smeaton who was alleged to have been tortured.

• The accused were not able to see the case for the prosecution before the trrial. On all but about three of the occasions on which she was supposed to have committed adultery she wasn't even at the place in question. On the other ones, she was pregnant or in confinement. (I may have the details slightly incorrect but that's the gist)

• The men were all found guilty. Then it was Anne's turn for trial. Therefore her trial was a forgone conclusion

• George Boleyn (Anne's brother) was convicted on the testimony of hs wife Jane. When she was executed years later (with ref to Katherine Howard) she admitted on the scaffold that she had made it up.

• There is no evidence that any of the above came from Henry. In fact he demanded a full investigation. It is likely it was orchestrated by Cromwell, as a political act to get rid of the Boleyn faction from power and replace them with the Seymours. Right up to the time that she was arrested all Henry's plans seem to show that he expected her to remain Queen, although he was bored and disappointed with her.

Conclusions AW has come to

• Mary Boleyn was the older sister, not the younger as TOBG says. (A document calls Anne "one of the daughters of..." and if she was the oldest it would have said so)

• Mary's children were not Henry's. He always acknowedged his legitimate children and gave them titles; he did not do that for Mary's DCs.

• Anne was almost certainly innocent and framed by Cromwell. Henry was not quite as much of a villain in the whole business as people think.

'I dont remember who asked, but I have read that Anne was praying silently as she was beheaded and allegedly the cut was so swift and clean that he lips continued to move after her head was severed. '

That was common, however, among people executed in this fashion.

It was a reaction several witnesses of Mary, Queen of Scots' execution claim to have seen.

whoops that should read "[Henry] always acknowledged his illegitimate children."

BalloonSlayer have you read AW's Innocent Traitor about Lady Jane Grey? It's a great read and never fails to have me in tears by the end. It also shows Mary in a sympathetic light, a bit of a change from the usual "Bloody Mary" portrayal.

And he had lots of illegitimates.

Didn't they all?

Mary Carey (as she was then) had 2 children by Henry...the first was a girl named Catherine who later married into the very influential and rich Knoylls family. She also had a son, Henry who Elizabeth, when she became queen, enobled.

Mary married william Stafford and died of plague some years later.

AFAIK, itis generally accepted that Anne was innocent of all charges against her.

Henry had tired of her, she had not given him the make heir she promised and he needed a reason to dispose of her.

Oooh no CaveMum I haven't. I have only read "Children of England" when she has a fourth of the book on each of Edward, Jane, Mary and Elizabeth. I felt so sorry for Jane AND Mary reading it - when she describes Mary's prayer book, with the "Prayer for Delivery from Childbirth" page still all tearstained.

I must give Innocent Traitor a go.

Queen Elizabeth only ever referred to her mother twice in her whole reign.

On her death one of the rings she always wore was found to have a portrait of anne boleyn inside.

She was very close to some of her boleyn relatives, particularly Marys children Catherine and Henry - her half siblings.

She enobled Henry.

It is really worth reading "The Lady in the Tower." It is all about the fall of Anne Boleyn, and as I said above, there is no evidence that Henry asked anyone to find a reason to dispose of Anne, in fact evidence points to him - despite his disappointment - seeing their marriage continuing, and the case against Anne coming as a surprise to him. Granted - he didn't have to believe it . . .