BLW and pureeing joint strategy?

[TJuice]

My baby girl is 24 weeks today. She has been fully bf but for the past week has a bottle of vælling as well as bf at last feed (its like a very thin corn gruel commonly used here in denmark).

After one attempt with baby rice, I decided to wait with the weaning until 26 weeks or even later because she was 3 and a half weeks premature, has an operation coming up next week and isn't showing a huge amount of interest anyway (apart from sipping from my water cup today actually)

Is it a bad idea to do both purees and BLW? How best to go about doing this?

At 6 months they don't need to have purees. It is sufficient to just mash stuff up for them. You can spoon feed mashed stuff or let them get stuck in and self feed with their hands and also give them a spoon to play with. This is known as BLW. With BLW you don't have to stick with "finger foods." Babies can eat all sorts of mashed up things with their hands too - think shepherds pie, spag bol, lasagne, fish pie, curry and rice, soup, stew etc.

Soup with their hands!!! hehe (sorry made me laugh!!

oops pressed return key....

was going to say that OP was asking for ideas to BLW and Puree not a definition of BLW. I got the impression she knows what BLW is?

Tjuice I do a mix of both as LO doesnt really pick all foods up yet and purees work well for us. But I do always offer her something to pick up while spoon feeding, give her a spoon too and if she wants to put hands in and eat then thats fine too .

thanks for your input everyone.

yeah, i think i need a huge plastic mat!

well, still no rush for me - elodie just had an op on her kidney this week so we'll take each day as it comes - right now just breastfeeding.

i have got some iron drops for babies so am not going to panic about that.

all i need to do is figure out what order to try things in.

why is it so important that new foods are introduced every few days - just to counteract boredom or?

the thing i wonder about is the whole "mealtimes" thing. my dh and i usually eat after 8pm, usually random spicy things, salads or takeaway - the usual no-kids couple stuff. we usually eat on the sofa or floor with a tray.

he works shifts as a junior doctor so we don't have a nice set mealtime with appropriate food.

i guess this is what they mean when they say your whole lifestyle completely changes when you have kids . . .

Paro - yes soup with their hands. You make it quite thick with lots of chunky vegetables and give them big bits of bread to dunk in.

You can't spoon feed puree and do BLW. one is a contradiction of the other. you can do a mixture of puree and finger foods but it's not BLW and also a lot of people think BLW is just finger food but it's not. I wanted to get both of those points across in my post cos it didn't seem like the OP knew that. Apologies if I misunderstood.

TJuice - There's nothing wrong with her having salad for dinner. DS often has a plate of lettuce, tomato, celery, cucumber, carrot, cheese, bits of chicken etc. If you are having something very spicy just make a less spicy version for dd.

ds 2 usually has his dinner on the table in front of him. I break up potatoes, carrots, beefburgers, fish fingers all fruit and he helps himself. I also do give some mushy things on a bowl from a spoon -rice pudding, crumbles etc. He loves picking the food up by himself...He was a big boy when born but showed no interest in food until 28 weeks ish and was quite happy on milk. We don't puree as he's fine with lumps but I do give him things with a smooth consistency as I can't stand smooth things -smoothies and soup etc so I don't want him to not like them also so we have all consistency's. (as adults do)

He eats exactly what we do so no different cooking needed, I just leave out all salt and dh and I add a little ourselves.

Same here - DS eats what we do - but now we don't eat processed things with added salt (the emergency pasta sauce fallback in the cupboard will probably go out of date before we use it) and we don't add salt or normal stock cubes to our food.

Re soup I make a lot of veggie soup, which I guess is practically puree! Anyway, DS either eats it off bread (nice and soaked in) or out of a doidy cup which he can control himself.

I've found there's pretty much a way you can serve everything to let baby control what (s)he's eating and how.

Anyway, none of that's any good when DS has a cold and smacks even his favourite food away when you try to tempt him In fact he won't even take his calpol, which he generally loves!

I get so fed up with the 'it's not BLW if you use a spoon too' dogma.

DS3 started off with BLW at 27 weeks. He really enjoyed it and mastered getting things into his mouth really quickly. However, he quickly became very frustrated because he couldn't get it in as quickly as he would have liked and got tired quite quickly. I used my common sense and started supplementing his finger foods with mashed up food on a spoon. Result - less frustrated, happier baby. By using a spoon I was following his lead and demand for more food.

Let's be clear - BLW is a theory. It's a nice theory, and there may well be something in it, but there simply isn't the evidence at the moment to say that it is better than purees.

well put daisymoo...

I follow my baby's lead when he 'shouts' and points at the stuff we have in bowls so we always include him and feed him with a spoon where he needs it.

I think if your baby eats a good range of food, is happy to at least put new things in their mouth and enjoys being at the table and joinning in the eating experience you're on the right lines, no matter how you got there!

Well said Daisymoo!!!

we did BLW and used a spoon from the beginning. i always gave DS a spoon and fork with his food from the beginning. he would have a go at using them but mostly used his hands. However my friend's dd got the hang of it straight away and self fed using a spoon from 6 or 7 months. BLW doesn't mean they have to use their hands.

I didn't know anything about BLW about a few days ago... Am really intrigued at the whole idea & I have a few questions. E.g. why is it good for baby to lead when it comes to food?! Why is it a problem if parents lead? Aren't parents supposed (hopefully) to know better about what's nutritious & what's not? Also: how is the baby leading when the adult controls, after all, what's in front of the baby, & offers certain foods & not others? How is that different than offering purees? Another question. What's wrong with purees? Also: what's good about using hands to eat? And what's so bad about spoons?

One thing I completely am against- as I think all of us would be- is force feeding the baby. I am bf my 4 month old & today- for example- he went for 5 hours without wanting any milk. I offered him the breast several times, but with the first sign that he didn't want it, I didn't persist. Which is what I intend to do when I give him solid foods.

But for the life of me, I really cannot see what's so problematic about babies being spoon fed, together with eating finger foods (after all, they're BABIES, why would they not be needing help with eating)... Please point me to the relevant research / articles because I find this whole BLW idea intriguing, as I said, I really really don't understand how it works.

The idea behind BLW is that they go with their own development, like any other skill they learn (e.g. crawling, talking). Parents provide safe opportunities to develop skills and babies go at their own pace. Therefore you provide an array of nutritious food, safe highchair, etc and they try what they like, when they are ready, and take as much as they want. Purees are given on a spoon, so the baby doesn't eat as actively - it's a more passive way of eating. In self feeding, the child must pick up, and put food in mouth. Puree is unnecessary if you wean past 6 months as they are capable of eating lumpier foods.

Reasons I like BLW:

• DS self-regulates how much he eats (important in preventing obesity)
• DS learns to take time over his food not just shovel it in (also important in preventing obesity)
• DS can eat any meals now (some of his puree-friends are stuck on lumps)
• DS has always known what different foods look like so he can anticipate what they taste like (not orange slop or green slop)
• DS is part of the family at mealtimes, we just sit and eat the same thing altogether (when we can!)
• the theory is that he will be less fussy when he's older - I can't stand fussiness and I don't want years of making different meals for fussy children if I can at all help it.
• it's cheaper - no 'special foods' or jars or blender needed
• it's quicker - DS eats with us or our leftovers so I'm not making 6 different meals a day or having to do batch-cooking.
• It's easier to eat out - just take a philly sandwich and some cucumber, no trying to find somewhere to heat up some mush. Or DS just eats what I've got, like a roast dinner.
• it can be very amusing watching DS eat!

These links might help too: Guardian article and Independent article. This includes bits about the research Gill Rapley has done. There's also a BLW book - if you don't want to buy it your library may stock it.

Hi Mrs Jamin,

Thanks for what you wrote & the links provided. Some of your points do make sense to me, & I definitely will be offering non-mushy foods to my boy when he's over 6 months. I thought though that most standard weaning books suggest doing that anyway? For example the classic Annabel Karmel book that I have suggests giving loads of different bits of finger food from very early on.

The other thing I worry about in that in the way of eating you describe- i.e. no mush whatsoever- there must surely be some problems with getting enough calories in! So in that case I would assume milk would still be the main nutrition given for much longer. So I'm wondering- what could be the problem with a combination of mushes (so that more calories can be taken in through food, and a wider range of nutrients than just milk) and 'proper food'?

The other thing is, I've heard from many many people that when babies are properly weaned, i.e. are taking solids on a regular basis, that helps with babies sleeping better... and also reduces night wakings. Speaking as a horribly sleep deprived parent of a 4 month old, I personally am waiting impatiently to introduce some basic solids, e.g. banana or baby rice. In fact, I'm thinking of starting those very mild foods around the 5 month mark, as surely there's no risk of allergy just with banana, baby rice & such. Not sure if the solids=sleep association is actually true, but one has to have hope!!

Last thing that strikes me from what you write. Surely it takes FAR more time to have the babies actually eat something when they're not helped at all?

I think in the end I'll be aiming for a combination too... but I'll definitely read the articles & buy the book, so that I can have a more balanced, all rounded idea of what the different ways of weaning are.

Replies to your qu's, Maria2007: BLW is different from the AK method in that self-feeding is the only method, as with AK, it's only supplementary. Milk is the main source of nutrition til 1; my DS is only dropping feeds now at 10-11 months and didn't want to drop them any earlier. Generally it seems that food doesn't make babies sleep through, it certainly didn't make a difference for DS.
Yes you're totally right that BLW takes more time. It's not 100% amazing, there are cons as well - you have to have confidence to see them through the gagging phase, it is very messy, and it is time-consuming (you find other things to do while they're eating like chopping veg, for e.g.). DS takes probably 20 mins for breakfast, 30 mins for lunch and 30-40 for tea. But I believe it's a good investment of time and he is getting a bit quicker - depending on how hungry he is and how much he is enjoying it!
Sounds like you're definitely doing the best thing, reading up, getting opinions and then making your mind up - good luck with it all Another thing that might help is if you meet any mums with slightly older babies as I found it really helpful to watch babies eat when DS was 3-4 MO (especially BLW babies).

Maria -

"Some of your points do make sense to me, & I definitely will be offering non-mushy foods to my boy when he's over 6 months."

Ideally you shouldn't offer any solid food to your baby until they reach 26 weeks because even though some babies digestive systems will be ready before this you can't actually tell so it is best to wait until 26 weeks. The idea with BLW is that the babies that are ready before 26 weeks will be able to self feed. If say a 23 week old baby can sit up, pick food up, put it in their mouth, chew an swallow it then their insides are ready for food. By feeding them yourself they can't tell you if they are ready or not.

"The other thing I worry about in that in the way of eating you describe- i.e. no mush whatsoever- there must surely be some problems with getting enough calories in! So in that case I would assume milk would still be the main nutrition given for much longer. So I'm wondering- what could be the problem with a combination of mushes (so that more calories can be taken in through food, and a wider range of nutrients than just milk) and 'proper food'? "

Until they are 12 months milk is way more important than solid food. Milk has much more calories than any "mush" you might feed them. That is why it doesn't matter if they take a few months to really get going with BLW cos before 12 months food is just for exploring, learning, feeling, touching, tasting. It's not really meant as much nutrition at this stage.

"The other thing is, I've heard from many many people that when babies are properly weaned, i.e. are taking solids on a regular basis, that helps with babies sleeping better... and also reduces night wakings. Speaking as a horribly sleep deprived parent of a 4 month old, I personally am waiting impatiently to introduce some basic solids, e.g. banana or baby rice. In fact, I'm thinking of starting those very mild foods around the 5 month mark, as surely there's no risk of allergy just with banana, baby rice & such. Not sure if the solids=sleep association is actually true, but one has to have hope!!"

Babies can react to almost anything even baby rice and banana. My MW and HV told us just to avoid nuts, fish (both normal fish and shellfish), meat, gluten, dairy, citrus and honey so I was glad DS was under a paed nutritionist cos they told me a very different story.
DS was losing a lot of weight so a paed nutritionist advised early weaning. He said to steer clear of anything except for fruit and veg. this is because things like nuts, fish (both normal fish and shellfish), meat, gluten, rice and dairy are frequently things people are intolerant to. even with just sticking to fruit and veg weaning before 26 weeks is still quite difficult because fruits and veg that you should avoid before 26 weeks are apples, pears, plums, cherries, nectarines, peaches, mangoes, melons, bananas, kiwis, raspberries, grapes, strawberries, citrus fruits, tomatoes, mushrooms, peas and peppers because they are common allergens aswell. the most common fruits to be allergic to usually have seeds or stones and the vegetables are usually beans or legumes.
Luckily DS then started to put weight on so we were told it was now best to wait until 26 weeks. As it was we left it until 8 months cos he just wasn't ready.
Also the sleeping through thing is a complete myth. If they are waking in the night due to hunger milk will be more more filling and calorific than the tiny amounts of solid food they might eat. Sometimes it does the exact opposite cos they find it hard to digest which can make them wake up.

Yes it does take them longer to fully grasp the idea of eating but that's the whole fun of it. They learn themselves how to eat the food by exploring it, like they do with everything - sitting, crawling, walking, jigsaws etc.

Also it helps them learn what they do and don't like. With BLW say they try some broccoli and don't like it. The next time you give them broccoli they think yuck it's that green tree thing i don't like that. With purees they see green slop. The next time you give them green slop (which in fact could be pea that they like) they refuse it because they think it is broccoli even though it might not be.

Nappyaddict: thanks for your message.

I've now ordered the BLW book & am hoping to find some good ideas in it. I have to say, I'm not convinved about a few things though, at least the way you describe them, even though there are some other things that are appealing to me. Here is what doesn't convince me:

1. I'm not convinced that babies that start to eat a little bit of solids before 26 weeks are not ok. Remember, these guidelines change all the time, and how can a few weeks make a difference, especially if we're talking about not-force feeding (which means if they don't seem keen, you don't persist) & if we're also talking about very small quantities of very mild foods.

2. Equally, I'm not convinced about all the research concerning allergies / food intolerance. I know lots of people believe that, and this is also one of the arguments for BF, but to me there's a huge difference between a true food allergy (pretty rare) & food intolerance, which is very vague. Lots of people think their babies have food intolerance, while in reality they just have normal baby digestive issues. (The same with adults by the way). I KNOW that many people don't agree with this view, but it's how I see it, so I'm just expressing my view. By the way, I'm still exclusively BF my boy, but avoidance of allergies is not the reason.

3. I'm interested in learning more about the idea that milk can be the main nutrition until 1 year. I'm sure the BLW book may have more on this... What about other vitamins & minerals that milk doesn't contain, what about iron? But as I said, I don't now the research on this.

4. Finally, on a wider level, I have a problem with a way of feeding which becomes an ideology, an all or nothing thing, and acquires a title such as 'baby-led-weaning' (assuming that all others who don't feed this way are not led by the baby). I also have a bigger problem (but that's another discussion) with the idea that baby has to lead. I think parents should be leading & making decisions, and that's a different thing from force-feeding. I've noticed in some of these threads about BLW (I read a few yesterday) that there's a bit of a derogatory attitude towards those mums who choose to also feed purees. Eg expressions such as 'force feeding'seem to be quite common. Or 'shoving the spoon into their mouths'etc. So I take issue with that, because it's very very easy & common to fall into a competitive 'who's a better mum'attitude.

5. Finally, I'm not convinced by the fact that establishing solids early doesn't help with better sleep. I've heard it from so many people, that it sounds as if it does make a difference. Or maybe those babies would be sleeping better anyway, because of developmental reasons?

6. Final thought. It seems to me that BLW depends on continuing with breastfeeding until one year. And also depends on women not working. Personally, if I were to decide to stop BF at 6-7 months (e.g. to go to work), then I wouldn't be happy with my baby just having formula & only bits & pieces of food. I would prefer some formula & lots of solids, just to make sure he's taking the best nutrients. Again, this is just a personal opinion... and I've taken a one-year maternity leave so am not planning to stop BF any time soon, but I may decide to cut it down gradually towards 8-9 months, so that I can stop completely around a year. So I do wonder if BLW is mainly possible for those women who have lots of time with their children, perhaps don't work,& who are still fully BF at a year. This is more a question, rather than a statement, because I have no idea if I'm right! Just meaning to say that convenience of the parents surely has to also come into consideration when thinking about how to feed children. It's not the only factor, but surely it has to be ONE factor?

I have to say though that both you, Nappyaddict, and Mrs Jasmin, have explained things very well, & have piqued my interest to learn more! Thanks for an interesting discussion...
Looking forward to hear more opinions!
Maria

Maria - i won't comment on your points about early weaning because i don't want this to turn into a debate about that.

With regards to your point about allergies DS was under a paediatric nutritionist who gave me the information about what foods to avoid if we did have to go down the early weaning route. I do think if anyone would know the right facts about this it would be someone in that profession.

A lot of the time I think rather than it being solids that help a baby sleep better it is just that they are around the age where they would have started sleeping better anyway. If you were to start a thread on here to say did solids help your baby sleep through you would find a lot say yes, a lot say it made no difference and a lot say it made them worse.

I only breastfed for 3 months because I went back to work and to study. From then DS was formula fed and I was unable to spend huge amounts of time with him. BLW still worked for us. DS was looked after by his grandma but I know other mums who have used nurseries and childminders and they have supported the decision to do BLW.

Hi again nappyaddict

Yes, I was reading the other thread about introducing solids & sleeping better... and it seems that it doesn't make THAT much of a difference So my hopes for better sleep in a couple of months are slowly disappearing... However, as you say, perhaps that's a time that babies start sleeping better on their own accord, so there's some light at the end of the tunnel Also, I noticed that on the other thread about sleeping/eating solids, some say that there IS a difference, but only when introducing three solid meals that are quite substantial, because they're quite filling, while with very early weaning and also with BLW, I suppose they don't get that much in?

As for allergies, I take your point. I don't know that much about the topic, to be honest, it's just that I'm a bit suspicious- from what I've read about this- when it comes to food intolerances, which many people claim to suffer from (I'm talking about adults) when in reality I'm not actually sure what it is they're talking about. I think you would agree that there's a difference between true food intolerance or food allergy, and the much more vague- and widespread- problems that many claim they (or their babies) have. Or anyway, that's how I see it... SO I would need much more info on this, and when I asked my health visitor to provide info on this (regarding weaning at 6 months) she was very vague, & probably didn't know exactly what research was involved. But I'd be interested in following up on that research... which is why (among other reasons) I bought the BLW book- am waiting for it to arrive in the post

Last point: Good to hear you've successfuly combined a way of feeding that works for you & working! That's very good, especially the idea that nurseries & childminders are more open to trying out different ways of feeding.

I still have my doubts- and many questions- about BLW, especially about the idea of it as a 'movement', but on the positive side, I'm definitely going to try to introduce 'whole'bits of food much much earlier, I didn't quite realize how early this is possible... so I'll try this from the beginning of weaning really.

Would love to continue this discussion if others have ideas. Maybe there are other threads of the pros & cons of BLW? (There must be) Perhaps someone can point me to them?

bump...

Would be interested in more discussion of the pros & cons of BLW, do you know of any other threads about this?... and also the possibilities of combining the two?

I've started with my combining of the two and so far its all very relaxed and a lot of fun and I hope it stays that way. She isn't eating very much but is sucking on this and that and gradually learning to swallow cereal and things like mashed potato and small chunks of banana and steamed carrot.

I am not even rushing to introduce new foods all the time - just seeing what i have in the fridge and trying this and that.

The gagging thing is a little nerve wracking though but I am smiling through it all . . .

Maria - I'd say the only con I can see is it is very messy, so if you have a low tolerance for this kind of thing, it might be hard, but they'll be feeding themselves and getting messy at some point so it's really just case of when you have the mess!!!

I think it's really a lot about what you feel comfortable with. We are doing BLW and i find it stress free and fun, and DD seems to as well. I've got a friend who is using the Annabel Karmel book and is following it to the letter, as this is less stressful for her. She feels more comfortable with that approach and I think there is a lot to be said for that.

I think, also with BLW, you need to accept that they may not eat very much, and you won't necessarily know how much they have eaten as a lot is on the floor, in their hair, hanging from the ceiling but for the first few months, food really is just about explorationa and fun and them getting used to it. Their breastmilk or formula is enough for them as they slowly build up their solids intake.

Agree with what others have said about solids having no effect on sleep. I think solid introduction just happens to coincide with when babies start to sleep longer. I know that it had no effect whatsoever on DD (who was a dreadful sleeper!)

As I said before, you can't say you're doing BLW and purees - if your DC is having some purees from a spoon and self-feeding other things, this is purees and finger food. BLW means 100% self-feeding. BLW isn't one meal method, it is the whole approach to weaning.

Gill Rapley said in an interview, IIRC, that all babies are able to be BLWed but not all parents will be able to do it with them - i.e. it's more about the parents choice about what they are comfortable with, than what your baby is like.

Maria2007, I'm not sure what further information you need as I think this thread has covered most of the main angles? I'm reading the BLW book at the moment and it goes through in detail over the advantages of BLW. It's made me even more convinced that purees are totally unnecessary and somewhat delay development for 6 month olds who are on purees for the majority of their solids experience. Also I'm not quite sure about why you have described BLW as a 'movement' - it comes out of proper research. It's not a fashion fad or a way for mums to be superior to one another, as some have accused BLW of.

Hi peachsmuggler,

I agree about mess, it's definitely part of the picture, but I suspect it's always going to be messy anyway, BLW or not BLW. A couple of questions, since I'm new to all this.

1. about sleep. There was another thread here about this (solids & sleep) it seemed in that thread that for most solids don't make a difference to sleep. However, those who offer 3 solid meals- quite substantial ones- seem to see a difference. So it may be a case of how much is eaten, and at what time, e.g. carbs & dairy at the evening meal would seem to me pretty sleep-inducing! (am hoping this is the case, since my boy is now 18 weeks & not sleeping well, & am looking forward to solids to provide some relief!)

2. as for milk being the main food for the 1st year, and solids just for exploration etc. People keep mentioning that, but I wonder if that's indeed the case, or is it just one viewpoint? I mean, I've heard others say that milk is gradually less & less important until the first year is reached, but that other nutrients are gradually more important. But that it's a gradual process. Surely with BLW the food eaten is heavily weighed towards milk, & much less solid intake? Would be interested in the research about milk being the most important food until one year, and not just from a BLW point of view (have ordered the BLW by the way, am waiting for it to arrive in the post, probably caught in Xmas post traffic!)