Choosing School for DC as a Teacher

[EdithGrantham]

I'm EYs trained and am now at the point of choosing a school for my DD.

Our local school is within walking distance, caters amazingly for SEN children (as far as we are aware out DD doesn't have SEN but I think it's worth mentioning!) it offers great opportunities for non-core subjects and some of DDs cousins are already there. However, beyond Rec they are incredibly formal. In year 1 there is no play-based learning, even at the beginning of the year as they are transitioning from reception, every lesson has a written outcome and some of the practises are things I find a little questionable, e.g. testing timetables from the beginning of Year 2 and the handwriting expectations for them being allowed to write in pen are, imo, unrealistic.
Our only other school that we could possibly apply to isn't within walking distance and DD won't know anyone, it's also only an infant school and I'm not sure what the Juniors is like. But they are much more nurturing and play-based.
I'm not sure what to do for the best and not sure how much my professional knowledge is clouding my judgement.
Just needed to get it out there and ask if anyone's been in a similar situation and what they've done?

We went for a play-based approach than the academic approach. I now regret it. I see the difference in DDs knowledge in comparison of peers (as I also run brownies so see them all together) and the gap is clearly wide. It's stressing her out for SATs because she's not been pushed before so she doesn't understand why she's suddenly getting into trouble for not finishing work etc and struggles with homework. I do wonder if that attitude towards learning was a gradual thing from an earlier age, these things they want would be more established as her normal by now.

I have a secondary background but work across EY to KS5 in my current role.

I think you need to switch your EY head off a little bit for this decision. It's normal in many schools for Year 1 to comprise formal learning from September; certainly in my experience the schools who take continuous provision into Y1 tend to be those serving demographics with a very high level of need. It's also normal to test times tables and you need to remember that children don't have the negative association with testing that we might: they love knowing things and having the opportunity to show it off. I'd rather a school started early with times tables than panicked and started cramming in juniors. What are the handwriting expectations that you object to?

A strong curriculum offer in foundation subjects is a valuable thing. Many schools push them out. Honestly, the local school sounds pretty good.

Thanks both, the times tables thing, obviously teaching them I don't object to but it's the test that seems unnecessary, it's timed and on things the children hadn't yet been taught when they first started. With the handwriting only children who have joined up handwriting can use a pen, this isn't a requirement for Y2 and some children won't have the bone development needed for joined up writing until they're 7 so it seems unfair, especially for children like my DD who is summer born. But like you've both said there are advantages to a school being more academic, especially as they do seem to offer a very broad curriculum, I guess I'm just raging against the education system as a whole really

I think the bone development thing is a bit of a myth.

My dc has a delayed bone age (medical issues). I've seen xrays of hands & wrists, they are currently a bone development age of 3 & 8 months.

DC has always loved writing & has among the neatest, well formed writing in class as a summer born year 1 child, choosing to copy older siblings joined up writing.

There's some skepticism about whether you can actually deliver academic learning outcomes effectively with child led continuous provision/play. It is one thing considering 3 year olds in a nursery setting with an adult to every 5 or 6 kids, prompting & engaging with the children & supporting them to extend play, & where the learning objectives are much simpler/conceptual.

It is very different in a y1 class of 30, where the TA could be supporting children with learning needs who don't quite qualify for support beyond ordinarily available provision, and the children need to be learning to read & write, learn & use maths concepts, use computers safely etc.

The times table testing appeals to a surprising number of children, boys especially, who love the test aspect & work harder when there's a score or a competitive element. This is why times table rockstars is so ubiquitous, its actually popular with a lot of children.

Secondary here, but I often hear my Y7s reminiscing about getting their "pen licence". It's a fond memory with them, not a traumatic one. It seems to be standard practice in junior schools that only those with joined up writing can use a pen.

@YourLastNerve I think the scepticism comes mostly from people who haven't seen it in practise, there are schools that do deliver academic success through play and as I said it was more the jump from a lot of play in reception to none at all in year 1 that bothered me. Also, wrt the times tables, whilst I don't agree with tests I do know lots of schools use them, but surely after they've taught the content!?

@DoggerFisher glad to hear it doesn't seem to have any lasting effects for those who do manage to achieve it, it's more the ones who don't or are delayed compared to their peers that I worry about, and again the inappropriateness of using this in KS1 (not juniors) where joined up writing isn't required, couldn't it be that they get a pen for neat writing then maybe a fancy pen when they do joined up?

Just because joined up writing isn't required in ks1, doesnt mean its not worth starting it then, as it takes time for some kids to get used to it, lots of schools start work on joining from y1.

Requirements are a floor, a bare minimum standard. Good schools will meet regard meeting requirements as the absolute minimum, especially with their learners who exceed age related expectations.

To be fair tho its less usual to have pens/pen license in ks1, bit odd. At our school there are no pen licenses, everyone starts pen together in ks2.

I am just unconvinced that you get a whole class producing written work to a high standard with child led/play based cp, 1 teacher to 30 kids. Too many kids simply will not choose to incorporate any writing at all in play even when there's ample opportunity/creative resources.

That's why I was more asking for advice from people who have had to choose between schools where one is a closer match to their pedagogy. As an early years practitioner I've seen classes have amazing success with play based approaches and certainly seen a more gradual transition to more formal learning be successful which was more of a concern than the formality itself.

Everyone starting with pens in KS2 sounds like a great way to do it, no-one gets singled out then.

I think in general, putting your child in local state schools means accepting that they will inevitably be taught in ways which don't necessarily fit your own preferred pedagogy. Continuous provision in Y1 is pretty unusual. If the school has excellent SEND provision then they are clearly aware that some children will need a different approach.

I wouldn't worry too much about the summer-born thing, either. It's very often the case, especially for girls IME, that the higher expectations bring them on very quickly. That was certainly my experience with my August-born DD.

As you say you are EY trained, where there's a very strong focus on play etc. When thinking about school choice & whether it aligns with your pedagogy, consider the length of time your child will be at the school as it may be that different approaches become more of a thing further up the school.

Also - try not to let your own school experiences influence it, eg if you have bad memories of struggling with handwriting or learning tables, or of children you've taught not being ready for writing etc, be cognisant that your own DC may have a different perspective - take into account what you think might suit them.

The dfe has published a research report Bol beginnings. It basically slates child led learning and recommends that end of year r is tested in pencil grip, letter formation and oracy. This could be the beginning of the end of free play in year r. Many year ones are formal because they have to cover so much with regard to the curriculum, personally I'd go for the local school.

Yes it was published back in 2017, there was lots of criticism from experts at the time as they visited a very limited number of schools, most of which conveniently used the teaching methods they wanted to find. Luckily there are many schools still following play based approaches and still getting good OFSTEDs and results

Yes my "problem" is that the other local school, although not within walking distance do use a more play based approach and get very good results at infants. Unfortunately I don't know what the associated Junior school is like

Yes, my DD at the moment is quite articulate and enjoys working with grown-ups at her preschool but she is very sensitive, especially to perceived criticism and it's hard to know whether that's just her age or her overall temperament

Have you looked at the outcomes the schools achieve at KS2?
True play based learning that is effective is actually extremely difficult to achieve and id be interested to know which of the schools you are looking at delivers the best results in year 6 following on from these very different approaches.

With regard to 'teaching the content first' before testing times tables in yr 2 - id imagine the children have been counting in 10's and 2's since reception and will start out with little tests of only these times tables, gradually adding more as the children subsequently learn their 5's etc.
Its very common for children to start using TT rockstars in year 2 which is easy to configure such that children only get questions on say the 10 times tables, which i would expect the majority of year 2 children not to be overwhelmed by, additional needs not withstanding.

I think a lot of people really underestimate young children. Many absolutely thrive under high expectations, gently encouraged to write and challenge themselves.
Its one of the reasons private schools achieve higher academic outcomes, they have high expectations which a lot of children do rise to!

Unfortunately not, they test on division and multiplication of 2s, 5s and 10s, can't remember how many questions but it was timed with under 10 seconds per question to answer.

The end of KS2 results are comparable across both schools

Strong foundations in the first years of school is the document. It was published this year. Sad reading for the like of us in early years. X

Ah ok, I've not had a chance to read that one yet, will give it a look over. I saw something today that said in terms of education theory we are still very early days in knowing what works because of how relatively recently education for the masses has been the norm.

The previous government had such an emphasis on formal learning in early years I think any research report written during their tenure (by a government affiliated body) needs to be taken with a pinch (at least) of salt.

We were lucky that our local school really aligned with our beliefs about education. It’s interesting that a school with a good reputation for send provision has nonsense like pen licenses which are far from inclusive.

Could you start her in the infant then move her to the primary at y2 or y3?

Have you read the report @mrsnjw mentioned? I had a skim through last night and there are some bits that are very sensible, e.g. not expecting children to write at length of they can't spell but it could be interpreted that they would rather see teacher-led activities.

Transferring would be a possibility but she would likely be the only one/only one of a couple who would be making that move which worries me as well with having to make all new friends.

I have yes. I agree with you that there are some sensible reflections in it (though, just like in the maths report, there is a failure to identify that many of these issues schools & teachers are criticised for are a direct result of the national curriculum and testing arrangements being unfit for purpose). However ultimately I feel that report is arguing for a reduction / removal of any child directed play / learning. The only play example in there - hopscotch - is one which an adult heavily directs. I think we ask too much of children too young, and this creates many of the behaviour issues we now see in schools. In the early years this can particularly be an issue for the younger children as developmentally they just aren’t where their older peers are (having 1/5 less life experience) and so it all feels harder for them.

But that doesn’t answer your question. In reality, most people are happy with the school their child ends up at. Most children have positive experiences of primary school. Most teachers’ children, even summer born, are very school ready and up to the demands of a more academic curriculum. There’s a lot to be said for going the local school. The challenge for you will be not letting on to your dc that there are bits you don’t agree with.