How to convey to parents that level fours are FINE?

[JonSnowKnowsNothing]

Obviously can't be specific although I'd like to. I'm just so frustrated by the parents of lovely kids with level four targets who are unhappy with progress and don't see why their children aren't getting fives.

Why do they not get that not all children can score level five on these bloody tests? Why do they not see that their children are thoughtful, honest, motivated, happy, hard working young people?? Why do they assume we are failing their children if they do not leave school with sodding level fives?? One child is on track for a four but came to juniors on a one. Still not happy!!!

Sorry for the rant, just dreading a meeting tomorrow where I'm going to have to either bite my tongue or be very blunt.

My children don't know exactly who else is on what reading level and only fuzzily who is on which table (because they get very excited if someone is on wrong table so might get told off by the teacher).

I humbly submit that some MNers children are only mimicking the obsessions of their parents.

Lljkk...I equally humbly agree 100% with you! :)

Certainly at secondary level some schools are "pushy", eg very on the ball with letting children know how they are doing and how they should be doing, testing them, etc, and some are laid back, and just let the children get on with it or not, as they prefer. In the latter case only those children who are naturally self- motivated or who have parents pushing them do well, and the others waste their school years messing around with their mates and dodging homework, and end up applying for jobs in McDonalds. Children are very let down by the culture of low expectations.

Badvoc I think you've misunderstood my meaning. I'm not pushing him to do as well as anyone else, I only encourage him to achieve his potential.

He, and others, are the ones who are aware of what other children are achieving and they want to do as well as their friends. I don't see that there is anything wrong in that at all.

Please don't direct your :( at him, he is happy, thriving, gets lots of praise for effort.

Well, yes. Goes without saying. I encourage my son too. Just because he's a level 4 does not mean he isn't encouraged

No I know that Why are you picking a fight with me?

Sorry, not picking a fight at all.
Just pointing out that even kids who are "only" level 4s have parents who care and encourage them!
Some posters above seem to imply they don't!

I also reckon it's wroth pointing out that for many children, 5 gcses at C grade is a bloody fantastic achievement. It is NOT simply a case of "aiming for mediocrity."

Yes, exactly jon.
Some of the views on this thread make me very, very sad.
As long as ds comes out of school with the qualifications he needs to follow the path he wants to, then I am happy.
Although, as I said upthread, no idea what quals you need for battle re enactment! :)

If a child gets the qualifications they need to do the job they want to do, and which is likely to be obtainable, and which will provide them with a decent and secure living, then that's all that is needed. But many don't know what they want to do or will change their mind later on, or will find that what they wanted to do is now oversubscribed or pays too little to live on. If they have good qualifications their options are wider, which surely has to be a good thing, especially as in recent times even non-intellectual jobs have tended to require reasonable qualifications.
I have a young relative who went to a good school, wasn't "pushed" by either school or parents and happily spent her non-school time watching TV and on Facebook, and ended up with 1 GCSE grade C. I don't think it was even a useful one. She is getting by, but only because she gets a lot of financial support from parents. If she had been given more "encouragement" she would have far more options now.
If the views on this thread make you sad Badvoc, try the recent threads where some posters are saying that their child should not be allowed to aim for any job which does not pay mega-bucks, because the gap between haves and have-nots is now so wide that the only option for their children is to be top earners. That made me sad.

I have only given my dc one piece of advice regarding school and jobs and it is this:
"Find something you love and then find someone willing to pay you for doing it"
I wish someone had given me the same advice as a youngster!

A lovely idea, but easier said than done.

I think its easy to state what you have in your OP from the basis of knowledge that you area. Teacher who is willing to take each child as far as they can in academic achievement terms. As a parents. Have NO idea whether my child is where she is in the class because she is less capable than her peers (which i struggle to accept as she is very capable at home) or whether she slips under the radar because she is kind, helpful and just gets on with it.
The disruptive, rude, arrogant child in her year gets extra help because he is so bright that he's a year ahead of the others. My summer born, below average for her class child gets no extra help, because she is well behaved.
It fucks me off to be honest, because I believe with some one on one time like the high achiever gets she'd fly...but of course never as high as he does, which won't boost the schools results in the same way...

None of this would bother me a single bit if she herself didn't come home upset because she feels she's not as Clever as the other kids. She's 8 FFS, and she's already being taught to write herself off..

An example of what I mean. Last week dd struggled with homework. She let her teacher know. The teacher promised to go through it with her...that was two weeks ago and nadda....bright boy meanwhile has had TWO one on one half hour sessions to complete his advanced work. Where is the fairness in that??!! Why should hebe trained to achieve his level 6 and dd have to make do with C's at gcse...how on earth can she know at this age WHAT she wants to do? Only by encouraging her to get he highest possible grades can we ensure she gets choices later on. It's not what I want to do. I want her to have a childhood and not WORRy about any of this stuff...but I'm scared of letting her down if I DONT push her because of all the competition she is facing.

Sorry, week BEFOREl sat she struggled with homework...

I've heard a lot about schools concentrating on getting lower ability children to Level 4, while not bothering about higher ability children who will get to Level 4 without help, but could do better with more attention from the teachers. So it can work both ways. As parents I think you have to accept that you may have to do something yourself to help your child progress. At primary school it is quite do-able, but much less so at secondary unfortunately.

Level 4 at end of ks2 would suggest level 6 at end of ks3 which would actually put them on B grade trajectory.

I'm a teacher and think that there often is a culture of low expectation. I think the point is about levels or exam grades is that kids can be trained to pass them. It's not indicative of some innate intelligence, it's just a test.

Being a good person has nothing to do with grades but parents want good opportunities for their kids. Level 4 is fine but level 5 is better. I'm not saying there's anymore that you can do but why shouldn't parents be ambitious for their children? God knows schools aren't.

I'm sure they know their kids are great. That's not why they've sent them to school. They need school for education and qualifications. I too find your attitude patronizing.

We do quite a but already dromedary, reading every night, tables practice several times a week...unfortunately I have NO idea the methods they are using to teach her certain things (maths) and I don't want to confuse her further by using the wrong methods. As it is she is very anti us trying to teach her anything she is doing at school. If I try and help she switches off and gets moody. I've checked with her teacher who says she is very receptive and gives her all in class, so it's just is she's like this with. Right now I'm seriously considering a tutor, which is honestly the last thing I want for her, but at the same time I'm worried that if we let her start to slip behind at this stage the gap will be too wide later.

It's ridiculous really. We had no homework at primary school when I was a kid, I didn't ever hear of a school friend having a tutor in my entire school career until gcse's. Now I have several friends who have their children tutored because of similar concerns to ours. If dd was amenable I'd homeschool....but she loves school!!

She's y4 btw. And 3a across the board at the moment. More than half of her year group are 4c/4b

Tarte - I think the government expect 4b or above in Year 6 SATS? So your DD must be ahead of her current government set target. And from what you say only just below halfway point for her year group (and it may be a good year or a better than average school). Personally I wouldn't panic (and have no idea what level my own primary school child is at - also Y4). There are some good books you can get which go through the methods and then give some sums to try? I think that with maths doing lots of practice really helps. With much of the rest of it reading a lot is key, if you can find books which enthuse her.

Thanks Dromedary. I think she's capable of getting a level 5...and I think doing so would afford her more choices later. At the same time I want her to enjoy learning, feel positive about it and to have a childhood. She does read. I raid the charity shops and she gets new books nearly every week, plus has loads of my old books and gets tons for Xmas birthday...no shortage of reading material for her and she does like reading...though not as much as some of her peers. She loves art too, and I'd love her to develop that as something just for her...
What I want is for her to have grown up when we did...without all this pressure and expectation!! :/

The way you'll convey it to them is not by saying "not all kids can get level 5s" or "your child is lovely and hardworking", but by getting across to them that you know their specific child very well indeed, have a good detailed knowledge of her strengths and weaknesses, and that you don't think a level 4 is "fine" but rather a sign of her working very well and achieving or exceeding her potential as indicated by earlier learning.

Parents don't want something that's "fine", something that will "do" - they want their child to get the best she personally can (happily) do, not something that's OK as the generalised target for the particular quartile of the cohort into which you have decided (for your own, possibly opaque, and possibly mistaken, reasons) their child fits.

Rather than reassuring them about the value of a level 4, you'd probably do better to sound rather as though you think a level 4 isn't good enough! Let them walk away reassured that there's no way you'd be happy with a child getting a level 4 if they had even the slightest chance of a level 5, that you're not closing any doors to level 5s and that right up until the last minute if there's anything you can do to help a child get up a further level then you'll do it. That's probably all they need to know to be reassured.

The more you try to persuade them that a level 4 is fine, the more they'll worry that you won't think it's worth their child trying for a higher level even if she could get it, so the more they'll think they need to push you to have higher expectations.

I think the most important thing parents need to do is not listen to other parents.
I'm serious, this is where it can go horribly wrong.
We live in a culture of competitiveness academically and that is fine, for those who thrive, are bright. They should be encouraged 100% to go for A*, but at the other end of the spectrum are those who struggle, or those who aren't very ambitious for an academic career and many in between. Some dc need the extra support, but may not benefit from a competitive environment.
I don't think there is anything wrong with tests at 7, 11, Y9. It is exactly what we have always had, well my 70's education had them.
Now it is the pressure to perform well and it is so unfair on our children. We really didn't know we were being tested and certainly were under no stress. Well I was under much more stress, but different circumstances.

You could tell them that typically dc who leave y6 with level 5's get straight Cs at GCSE and then see the on their faces.

Level four is where the student in the MIDDLE of the class is 'expected' to be. Nothing wrong with that.

When you get a child who is still on p-scales at the end of Y6, and in Y11 is on course for an F in Maths and a D in English, which is a MASSIVE achievement for this DC, you start to ignore the school gate chatter about SATS...

I have another who was lvl 3 above the board in Y2, lvl 5/6 in Y6 (and he missed half a term of Y6 recovering from illness). In Y7 now, working on lvl 7/8...

And yet another, who at Y2 SATS was lvl 1c in Maths, p-scales in reading and writing. Currently in Y5, working on lvl 4b Maths, lvl 3a English apart from his handwriting which is around lvl 2c but he's physically disabled.

Progress is not linear.

It's all pretty much bollocks if you ask me. Based on my DD's grades, she would get U in every GCSE. Based on DS1's grades, fuck knows, but he can do GCSE Maths now in Y7. And does. Often. He finds it fun. ugh

Based on my DS2's end of KS1, he has already exceeded his 2 level progress across KS2 and he's not yet halfway through Y5.

I fully intend to just nod and smile when faced with levels with DS3...

(DS3 is likely to be a 'late bloomer' like DS2, given his current development)

DS2 has made 6 sub levels progress in Maths in just 13 weeks. Though that IS mostly down to moving out of a school deemed 'Outstanding' to one deemed 'Satisfactory' (Due Ofsted soon.)

Give me the 'Satisfactory' school any day...

Again, it's all just pointless hoops for teachers and schools to jump through, and bears no real meaning to how real life children (rather than some textbook 'average' child) actually progress.