Puppy survival thread! All welcome!

[VanGoSunflowers]

Running on from our last one…

I won’t tag people because I will forget someone and then feel awful 😂

Rory had a lovely time at the Lancashire Game and Country Festival today. He especially enjoyed the horses and a samba band. He made me pick him up so I could dance with him 😂. He met soo many other dogs and was polite to all of them except when he and a spaniel got bored watching the horses and started trying to play. He stopped when I said stop though 😊. Of course being a puppy, he got lots of human attention!

@GoodBones85 welcome! I have an excitable puppy too who wants to play with all dogs. It seems to make it harder to try and get other people not to let their dogs come over to him (I always put him on lead when I see another dog) because he’s clearly not anxious or aggressive but just over excitable! I’ve had a couple of other dogs come over to him when he is on lead and they are off because of course, he looks so approachable!

The story you told @Nella68 about letting someone wander up to your dog mid dump and try and play is exactly why I try hard to stop Pablo from meeting any other dogs. He goes straight to barking and play stance immediately, even when they’re trying to ignore him. It’s hit and miss for me and depends entirely on how much notice I get before the other dog is near and if I have any cheese left to give him 😂 it’s the only thing that’ll make him focus on me and not the dog.

@GoodBones85 That is one seriously cute puppy. 💖

I seem to be the odd one out, in that I have allowed K to say hello to nearly every dog we have met.
When she was a tiny puppy, I held her back and asked the other owners if their dog was alright with puppies and if she could meet them. And then allowed her to approach. I think she got told off twice for being too boisterous.
If it was a dog who didn't like puppies, I'd lead her and keep her away.
She had few social graces when she was little. But at 11 months, she is now much more polite in her approach and I can call her away from dogs I don't want her to meet. Some dogs she will run around with and others she will have a quick sniff of and then move on.
Perhaps it's different in that where I walk it is extremely rare to meet on lead dogs and most people allow their dogs to mingle.
How do dogs who aren't allowed to meet others learn doggy etiquette and manners? This isn't a criticism of anyone. (You all probably think I'm the nob for letting K run riot. 🙈) I'm genuinely interested in others' approaches.
At the end of the day, we are all doing what we feel is best for our dogs.

The problem for us is that hardly anybody ever allows their dogs (or kids) to meet our girl. It's been the same since she was about 6 months old. Once she was noticeably larger than a Golden Retriever all the cuddles stopped, aside from people who know her.
The fact that she's always lead walked probably doesn't help. When people see an enormous dog on a lead 90% of them seem to think reactive/aggressive, even if it is walking calmly and quietly, so they won't let their dog approach.
It also probably doesn't help that I'm old(ish) and slender, because somehow people seem to think big dogs need big owners.
So she is very under socialised with dogs. There are a couple she sees regularly that she likes and who like her, despite her size, but this time around, socialisation has been much harder. Opinions towards giant dogs have most definitely changed since we had our previous puppy 12 years ago.
It makes me sad for her because she is very sweet natured and still puppyish.

@SpanielsGalore makes a good point about doggy etiquette and manners. I have a puppy who doesn't seem to know she's a dog or how to behave around other dogs.

@SpanielsGalore I cheat. I let the Satan do the puppy raising for me 😁But I think part of having so many is that, being honest, outside of a few of their 'friends' they really aren't that interested in other dogs. Eris pretty much ignores all dogs other than her little cocker spaniel friend (I say friend - she's his friend, I'm not sure he is her friend).

It's a fine line - between not letting your dog be a nuisance and socialising them/acclimating them effectively.

@Idstillratherbepaddleboarding ohhh look at those soft ears. Even from the back you can tell he's really engaged by what's going on! I'd love to go to one of those shows with my rabble, but it's just impossible with so many of my own dogs and so many other dogs.

My pup met some young children for the first time today and absolutely loved them and the fuss. However she had huge saucer eyes as a big Rhodesian Ridgeback walked past the car crate. She wasn’t scared, more astonished!

@Aubrielle ah that’s sad your poor girlie gets snubbed for her size. I like big dogs.

It is tricky. And adolescence can throw a spanner in the works, especially for boys - Bill loved everyone up till about eight months, then some entire males started responding differently to him and vice versa, and now he's a certified nobhead. He's also absolutely terrible with puppies as they wildly over-excite him and he doesn't stop if they get a bit intimidated - he thinks that if they run that's the game. If I could go back in time, I'd be much more careful about how much wild play I allowed, but of course that might have been fine with a different character of dog. You just have to do your level best.

@VanGoSunflowers I'm with you - I always loved dogs, loved dog-sitting etc, but the one thing I was absolutely unprepared for is the sheer depth of the emotional connection and the love. It floors me sometimes still.

@Aubrielle Yes it's more difficult when they are on lead. I try not to let mine do on lead greetings, because it might change their reactions. The old fight or flight scenario. When P had to do on lead walks, I asked someone if she could say hello to his dog. He said yes and then it bit her on the nose.

@LandSharksAnonymous 😂 It is handy having a ready made pack. Unfortunately P is no Satan, so she wasn't any good at teaching K manners.
I don't think K was too much of a nuisance. Her main problem was running straight up to dogs, instead of doing a slow, polite approach. She'd enthusiastically say hello and then we'd move on. The two dogs who told her off belonged to people I know, so we were stood chatting for longer.
My sprocker, on the other hand, was a total pain in the arse. He was your typical 'he just wants to play' dog. He'd run over to another dog, not recall and bounce around just out of reach so I couldn't grab him. So he went on a long line for a while.

@Bupster Poor Bill with dogs treating him differently. It is difficult. Sometimes you can do everything right and it still goes wrong. My first dog was attacked by others and became fear reactive. Hopefully Bill will be less nobbish as he grows up.

I never let V greet every dog he met because I just don’t think there’s much benefit to it, especially if he then expects to say hello to everyone and there’s a dog who is reactive etc. I taught him from an early age to sit and wait if a person or dog was approaching, and eventually he started doing it without me prompting. Now if he’s off lead and sees another dog or a person, he will circle back and walk to heel unless I tell him to ‘go see’ which basically means it’s ok for him to say hello.

But he is a bit nervy, despite being very friendly, and it’s very rare he will play with another dog. He likes a calm friendly sniff then to carry on walking. If there’s a dog that is a bit intense from the off he doesn’t react well to that and will panic and jump up at me scared (although he’s getting better with this and hasn’t done it for a while now.)

Quite a timely discussion really as me and dd were just sat this evening outside on the high street having a drink, and a man passed with a GSD who wanted to say hello to Vinny which I allowed but then the other dog turned aggressive and tried to bite him!! The owner just stood there like a lemon and took ages to move his dog away.

I think you have to adapt your approach to your dog and what you are happy with them doing. It’s not really a one size fits all thing. I’m not particularly interested in V being super social, but obviously want him to be polite to other dogs. Whereas I know others like their dogs to play and their dogs have the personality to suit that approach too.

@SpanielsGalore
Can you elaborate please? Is this greetings with your dog on the lead, the other dog on the lead or both? What do you mean by change their reactions?
I'm just trying to understand why we are so rarely meeting dogs.

@Aubrielle we were taught not to do on lead greetings either as it restricts their natural body movement and can cause miscommunication. So they often would end up approaching each other head on, which is an unnatural greeting approach for them, rather than their natural ‘circling’ which is the usual way two dogs would greet each other.

i hope I have explained that properly!

Is this why dog people stay away from us then? Thanks @YorkshireFelix I had no idea. Shows how much I know after almost 50 years with dogs 🙄

Probably not - I think most dog owners don’t really know about the on-lead thing as we constantly get people trying to let their dogs greet Vinny when they are both on leads. I wouldn’t have known about it until our trainer informed us. We did an exercise about polite greetings with our puppies and her older dog, and it was so interesting to watch after she had pointed out what the correct body language should be. I always notice the circling now!

That's interesting. Thanks @YorkshireFelix

I agree it’s a difficult balance to strike and there are so many variables - your dog’s personality, what you as an owner are comfortable with and the dogs that you come across day to day.

We are the opposite to you @Aubrielle in that I try and actively avoid meeting other dogs too much but people walk their dog straight over to mine even when it is clear what I am trying to get him to do! I think for me, Pablo is almost maybe too friendly and excitable and sometimes even a warning growl won’t deter him from constantly trying. He tried to say hello to another dog once that had a ball in its mouth - the other dog obviously thought Pablo was trying to steal his ball and he was baring his teeth and proper snarling and Pablo would back away for a short while but then keep trying! So I’m going with a more prolonged and gradual approach to it if that makes sense. I’m worried he wouldn’t heed the other dog’s signals and if it’s a dog I don’t know, it could turn nasty and I’d be worried about the lasting effect that would have on him. If he was generally quite calm and/or disinterested in other dogs I wouldn’t worry so much about it.

The on lead/off lead thing is interesting. We had a huge muscular staffy type dog run over to us once - he was clearly friendly but very boisterous and powerful. He was off lead (ignoring owners attempts to recall and they didn’t seem too bothered) and Pablo was on lead (I only let him off when there are no people or dogs around and recall him if I see anyone coming) Pablo did actually seem quite intimidated and was backing away but as he was on the lead, I had to kind of follow where he wanted to go if that makes sense? The staffy then jumped up and me and nearly knocked me off my feet! Again, he was clearly very friendly but it wasn’t the best interaction.

I could burst when I look at him sometimes!

I agree you probably just have to do the best you can. It’s difficult to know which way is the right way - is me keeping Pablo from nearly every other dog (other than the ones I know) teaching him to ignore them or will it just make him even more excitable when he does get to play? Would letting him meet almost every other dog teach him faster how to behave or would it make him think every dog wants to play? It’s a tricky one!

@YorkshireFelix P is a exactly like Vinny. She likes to say hello to other dogs. But it's a polite sniff and then she moves on. I can only think of one dog she has played with, apart from the dogs she lives with. And if the other dog is a bit too much for her, she'll come and leap up into my arms for me to rescue her. She also doesn't like packs of dogs. She can cope with two at a time, three at a push. But any more than that and she wants picking up again.

The owner of the GSD sounds like a bit of a pillock.

I agree you have to tailor your approach to your dog's personality. P is incredibly good at communicating with other dogs, so I let her get on with it. She can read them better than I can. K is confident and happy to meet other dogs, although not quite as politely as P. But as she's getting older, she's more interested in saying a quick hello and getting back to sniffing. I've also had a pain in the arse, over friendly dog and a fear reactive dog that had to be walked away from others.
I think that probably has a huge bearing on my approach now. After 14 years of having to hide away from everyone else, it's nice to have sociable dogs that allow me to walk in public places.

I have always been told you shouldn't let an off lead dog approach an on lead dog. So if my dogs were off lead and I saw you with Brie on lead, I would call my dogs to me and walk in a different direction, or put them on lead and keep my distance.

And then what @YorkshireFelix said. The lead prevents the dogs from approaching each other naturally and makes it more difficult for them to read each other.

The fight or flight instinct is exactly what it says. If a dog is in a situation it doesn't like, it has two options. Fight or flight (run away). @VanGoSunflowers incident is a good example of that. Pablo clearly wasn't happy with the staffy and his instinct was to get away (flight). Being on a lead blocks this option, so the dog has to resort to 'fight'.

Your wariness is understandable @VanGoSunflowers . A bad experience early on can have lasting effects. Our previous pup was attacked and injured at 16 weeks old, by a large off-lead dog and he never completely got over it. I was left dog phobic for a long time after and even now I will rarely touch dogs that we meet. I'm still very cautious with Brie, despite her size and protective ruff.

I should perhaps be glad that people discourage their dogs from approaching her. She is quite submissive and tends not to like dogs that bark - she will back away or move to the other side of me to avoid forceful dogs. She is generally far more interested in people than dogs.

It never goes away that feeling, that connection. That thing when they look at you, you look at them and you both think "you're mine!"
I've just had one of those moments tonight when she jumped up and put her paws on my shoulders and we were face to face ❤

I've never been told that @SpanielsGalore but it does explain a lot. People do seem to walk the other way when they see her. I think she would back off if she felt pushed by another dog, but I'm not eager to find out because she is still very immature and lacks confidence.

The one girl we walked off lead had no interest in other dogs, so the reverse scenario never cropped up for us - she wouldn't have approached an on the lead dog.

Our males did, on occasion have off-lead dogs run up to them on the fields but they never reacted aggressively or defensively because it was on neutral ground. They were highly territorial however, and would go crazy towards two particular local males (a GSD and a Malamute) that were also lead walked and had the same response towards them; a frenzy of barking.

Two of our bitches were also territorial and would not tolerate other bitches nearby without vocalising, but Brie shows no signs as yet. She is surprisingly passive.

@SpanielsGalore I remember hearing that somewhere too, it ran through my mind briefly during that encounter whether I should have let Pablo off but we were in a busy play ground (walking through it to get to the nature trail behind it) and the other dog didn’t seem at all aggressive- I think I decided in that moment that if I didn’t like where it was going I would have just picked Pablo up! It wasn’t ideal and I was annoyed at the guy for barely sauntering over and his dog took no notice when he tried to recall.

I don’t know much about dogs but I do really feel for anyone’s dog that has been through an experience like you did @Aubrielle
I know someone who has a GSD - got him from 8 weeks, did all the socialising etc all the training - all was going well - all those years of effort in to shaping their dog and being responsible owners and all it took was one off lead aggressive dog and he hasn’t been the same since.

I do sometimes wish I could have another dog around Pablo that wasn’t as placid as his greyhound friend, that will put him in his place in the way that he needs (I.e. not nasty but firm) so that if he ever does get a warning signal from a dog that might attack him, he would back off. Maybe he will calm down with age but for now, I am proceeding with an abundance of caution! It’s not even always for his sake, someone came over to us once with a teeny puppy (couldn’t tell you what breed it was) and wanted them to meet him and I had to say no because I was worried P would be too boisterous and hurt the poor little thing!
Maybe I need to chill out a bit 😂

It's hard to know what's right @VanGoSunflowers , it really is, You can't always read the body language and it's not always the dogs you expect that turn out to be the problem ones. I don't think you can ever be too cautious, especially before your dog is fully formed.

@VanGoSunflowers It's difficult, isn't it? I have dropped the lead before, so my dog could escape. But then it's not aways safe to do that if you are near a road or something.

@Aubrielle very true. I think I’d rather try and avoid something terrible happening at all costs and keep him away from meeting strange dogs for now.

@SpanielsGalore and this is why I tend to err towards walking him in quiet places at quiet times to lower the chance of having to make that decision 😂 I do need to walk him in busier areas to get used to it though. Theres a walk I do sometimes where I drive in to my home town on a busy Saturday morning and walk him for a few minutes through the centre - treats in hand - to try and get him used to ignoring everyone and everything and then we walk to the river bank and I take him off down there as there aren’t usually many people about (if any!) but bloody typical it was packed this morning so I had to keep changing my route 😂

Its also made slightly more difficult by the fact that he will wander further from me now he is getting more confident so I can’t always judge if a dog is far enough away that he won’t bolt over to it (although he hasn’t proven me wrong yet, other than that time he went over to the group of dog standers walkers that I now avoid) And shock horror, I do let him go more than one metre away from me 😂

@VanGoSunflowers Shock, horror indeed. 😂 I enforce the 1 metre rule. They're not allowed to come that close. 😂