Cavalier King Charles Spaniel puppy/breed dilemma. Do you have one?

[usernamenotaccepted]

I was coming on here this morning because of a conversation with my DD about a male CKCS puppy which I've reserved with the breeder. Then saw a thread about the breed and, on the back of a discussion I had with DD this morning wanted to get some (hopefully more objective) views/experiences from other owners.
Just to give context: DD wanted a cavapoo or similar 'teddybear' type dog but from experience I know that this is the extent of her interest, and whilst there are literally thousands of them on websites that's not the route I want to go down.
This Breeder is on Champ dogs and has an online presence as a very successful breeder and winner of competitions with her dogs, and the pup I reserved is the progeny of a winning sire and dam. Both parents health screened and tested clear for the issues associated with the breed. I've received photos and a video of the puppies who are 2.5 weeks old and won't be leaving mum until at least 9 weeks old.
I had to complete a form detailing my lifestyle, housing, work commitments etc and my thoughts about such things as how much it's going to cost me to own a dog (insurance, pet food, care and so forth) and what kinds of things I feel are acceptable, or not, in terms of what a puppy needs. Very extensive. Also had to agree and sign a contract to not breed and that the deposit would be refunded to me if puppy is found to have any of the heritable conditions the breed is known for - the sale won't proceed in other words. I was delighted to have her agree to sell me one of her dogs (a male).

So since then DD is telling me all about the heart conditions etc (which I already know about as I did research before I decided on the breed). I know she is having a reaction to my not going down the cavapoo type route but it's really upset me and makes me doubt myself. I'm in the best position now to have a companionate dog as I've just retired from a very demanding public sector job, I have a lovely home and garden and live in a very dog friendly part of the uk with all kinds of dog safe spaces and walking areas. But its more about the bond between me and my (proposed) dog that I'm interested in. That's why I chose this particular breed and will be getting lifetime insurance.

I mean, there are no guarantees but where does someone draw the line with whether to go into dog ownership, particularly when a breed comes with these seemingly massive 'health warnings'?

Tell your DD that cavapoos will inherit the same health conditions from their Cavalier genes and probably come from an unscrupulous breeder unlikely to screen for them.

TBH I would be wary about the breed bc of the health issues, but it sounds as it you’ve done your homework to mitigate them as far as possible.

I forgot to say video of pups was with mum who looked in lovely good health and seemed very happy and smiley (if that's a thing with dogs!).

A cavapoo is more likely to have health and behaviour issues than a properly bred KC. A cavapoo isn't a breed so no paperwork, no way of checking lines and more likely to come from a puppy farm. The KC breeder sounds genuine + responsible, I would go for that option.

You are certainly far more likely to get a healthy puppy from a pedigree breeder who is screening for the appropriate health conditions (and do check that the breeder you are speaking to really is doing all of those ...) than a cross-breed puppy which will fundamentally be bred as a business.

We had a CKS who we sadly lost 2 years ago. He was 13 and the absolute love of my life, the best and most beautiful dog that ever existed as far as I’m concerned.

We rehomed him when he was 1, I hadn’t considered the breed before.

So it became a bit of a running joke whenever we’d go to the vets with some issue or other and the line would always be ‘oh yes cavaliers can be more prone to that’ - but he didn’t develop any heart issues until he was over 11 and that was a very minor heart murmur at first, which did progress but very slowly.

He did have epilepsy, which became apparent about 6 months or so after he came to us but for a very long time this really didn’t impact him much - he would have very occasional brief seizures which were always scary for me but didn’t seem to affect him at all, until he was about 5 when he had a really huge seizure which was bloody awful and went on for ages - he ended up in the vetinary hospital and then on medication after that - which again kept it really well controlled and it never happened again.

It became difficult as he got older as the epilepsy medication affected his liver function, and the vet would only prescribe if we kept up with regular blood tests to keep an eye on that, he also developed arthritis but painkillers were difficult again because of liver impact - changing epilepsy drugs led to more seizures and it was a difficult balancing act. It was also bloody expensive - insurance had become basically pointless as it cost an absolute fortune anyway due to his breed but they weren’t covering most of the visits/ things we actually needed so I gave up on that and would just save each month for anything necessary.

I’ve made it sound awful but honestly he was actually a really healthy dog up to the end, still enjoying walks and a great quality of life up until the very end when he didn’t anymore and it was time to make the call.

I think I would be wary if I was thinking about getting the breed again - but it does sound like you’ve done your research well and mitigated risks as far as possible.

They are brilliant dogs. So affectionate and loving. Mine was amazing with kids - all my nieces and nephews and then once my daughter came along. He was so loving and had such a big personality - I’m tearing up writing this because I miss him so bloody much. So I think if you’re looking for a companion you couldn’t do better - as long as you realistic about the potential for risks/ issues which it sounds like you are.

Apparently 50% of Cavs have a heart murmur by age 5 and 90% by age 10 , if they get to 10 it’s not a breed I would buy .

I have one which came from a pedigree breeder who did all the necessary checks and screenings as she was bred to be ‘Crufts’ standard. I will add that mine was 6 months when we adopted her, after months of looking for a breeder she was recommended to us and she said this one could be for sale. We drove down and saw the Mum and other family members (13 in total) all very happy, clean environment. We signed an arrangement that if we were ever unable to care for her then she would be returned to her, all checks etc accounted for plus we had researched the breeder. My little cavalier really is the most lovely little person, she gets complimented everywhere she goes and is the perfect mix of cuddly and mountain goat. I would say go for it!

I have a 10yo cavachon who had no health screening and touch wood has never been to the vet apart from vaccinations. A friend of mine has a similar age cavalier with no health issues.

I think as you’ve selected a good breeder who has screened then that’s as good as you can do. I certainly wouldn’t get another cav cross unless parents have been health screened (some do). I think we’ve been lucky.

@Glitterb sounds very similar to the breeder who I've found, has multi generations of the same family of dogs and I've agreed to return him to her if I'm unable to care for him.
Does everyone go through this kind of anxiety when considering getting a dog? Or is it me?
I think I might phone my local vet (who I know very well, they cared for my lovely cat from kittenhood til she died earlier this year at age 14 and she had a heart condition too, so there's a part of me that knows what it can be like toward the end). They might be willing to give another perspective.

My last dog was a cav. Fabulous breed- really loyal and chilled. Easy to train too.

Yes, heart murmurs are pretty much inevitable but having a good breeder can really mitigate so much. Ours developed a small murmur when she was 11. She died when she was 13.

If you go through a KC registered breeder, then they usually do all the health checks/ genetic screening. My Cavalier's parents both had DNA testing and he is now 4 years old and had no issues.
He is actually the love of my life! The most caring, sweet and loving dog ever. Yes, they are needy! But if you have the time, patience and love then they will steal your heart!
Lots of people are against the breed because of the health problems, but the majority of them are not KC bred! As long as you go through a reputable KC breeder then you should be fine.
Also make sure that you have insurance- ours is only 40 pound per month.

If you go through a KC registered breeder, then they usually do all the health checks/ genetic screening.

Lots of people are against the breed because of the health problems, but the majority of them are not KC bred!

Aaaaah, if only it were that simple ... I am a dyed in the wool pedigree dog person, but all KC registered means is that the breeder has had appropriate paperwork to make a believable claim to have puppies registered.

It does put some welfare limitations on (not too many litters, not too young/old for the dam) - but plenty of KC registered dogs are unfortunately very poorly bred, and it requires a lot of research and a good dose of luck to work out which litter is which!

Cavachons are not a registered dog breed and therefore they have the extra risk of inheriting different health problems form the cavaliers and from the bichon breed! X

@Whadda and @blueraininlondon this is encouraging. Yes KC registered and lineage/testing/DNA results of parents and grandparents (who are still living with breeder) is available.
Thanks for that tip about insurance, I think PetPlan seem to have good lifetime cover although can't get a quote yet.

What’s the inbreeding coefficient of the puppy? the higher the percentage, the higher the risk of health problems

if it’s a reputable breeder, you should be able to enter the puppy’s name into the kennel club health test results finder and see not only the puppy’s info, but that of ancestors.

@usernamenotaccepted you have done everything that I would advise! Have you been to see puppy yet?
I have had one before growing up, the vet was always surprised as he never developed a heart murmur and lived until he was nearly 15! The breed unfortunately has a bad name due to puppy farming and poor breeding

We lost out eldest cavalier in March. He was diagnosed with a heart murmur the year before but it was a stroke that took him, he was 13. Our other cav is 10 in April and doesn't have any heart issues (or other health issues). That said, my mum lost her cav at the age of 10 to heart problems. As well as heart/health issues, they can also have bad separation anxiety. All 3 cavs mentioned have/had anxiety, my current boy is the worst for it.

My wee CKCS I had when the children were small and I wasn't working full time was a wonderful, special, characterful little dog. I adored him and still miss him. He lived to the age of 15 without ever really needing the vet - which is more than you can say for most dogs, I think. He came from a Crufts breeder but was a bit of a runt - small even for a cavvie. He wasn't registered as he wasn't show standard. She did breed to avoid heart problems but to be honest I didn't know much about the health problems and didn't take in much of what she said. I think to a large extent with all dogs you take your chances.

I adored my little boy and you'll never read a news story about a cavvie killing someone

Get the CKCS they are the best little dogs and by the sounds of it you've found a brilliant breeder.

Mine is 1 year old now but I've had 3 in the past, only one has to go onto low dose heart medication at 10 and I had her pts at 12. You would have never known she was 12, she still acted like a 3 year old and had no aches/pains or stiffness dogs usually get with age.

They are the most loving and loyal little things and I honestly couldn't imagine my life without one but will now always buy from health testing breeders.

I see a woman on walks that has Cavaliers and a Cavapoo, she says she will never have a Cavapoo again because hers is absolutely nuts and is always on the go.

95% of dogs I seem to see around where I live are cockers, labs and every variety of poodle cross you can imagine in loads of different colours/sizes.

Beware though, all of mine have absolutely hated the rain 🙄

I had 2 when I was younger and they died at 13 and 15. I can’t remember if it was heart related though. They only really ever went to the vets for annual jabs. I have one now again who is nearly 1. Amazing dog, really easy to train and very affectionate. No issues so far.

A first cross would be a far bigger risk than a health tested puppy from an experienced breeder, both in health and temperament.

The health benefits of crossing doesn’t kick in until you have multiple generations of multiple breeds. Real mongrels if you like. My last dog was a rescue mongrel. You don’t see them around much now.

It's a breed with a lot of health issues so I can see why outcrossing would be a good idea however It's unlikely that a cavapoo breeder would do any health screening of parents before breeding and simply crossing doesn't make them all disappear.

For all its faults the judges in KC showing are usually checking the dogs conformation and movement, bite, dropped testicles etc and they'd need reasonable temperament to be handled. So in an ideal world would help to avoid breeding stock passing faults down and breeder could select sire to hopefully improve weaker areas in the dam or studying pedigree to reduce Inbreeding coefficient by using a distant or even foreign bred stud.
So a KC breeder that shows is likely to have gain more knowledge and awareness in these things but you'd have to try work out for yourself whether they are invested in improving future health of their breed which may mean going against the grain or winning (increases breeding value) as obviously a lot of issues in that breed (& others) came about because of people's egos to win and god like desire towards extremism over the dog welfare. There seems to be few breeders of mixes that even consider these things and just use sire that they already owned or is conveniently local so can have more structural issues which effect health and sometimes temperament not ideal too depending on motives for having litter.

Admittedly I'd personally avoid a cav & its mixes along with many other breeds with some serious health problems. However it seems this is a caring breeder and you can invest the saving on grooming costs of a oodle into good pet insurance cover.

I don’t disagree with outcrossing cavaliers but churning out fashionable cross breeds is not outcrossing… that dog is far more likely to have health issues than a responsibly bred cavalier. With a cavapoo you also get to add the risk of VWD from the poodle. What a genetic disaster.

Has this puppy’s parents been MRI scanned would be my main question? SM/CM is common and really distressing and debilitating far more so that heart murmurs and eye issues.

Kennel club assured breeders are not required to do BVA/KC CM/SM Syringomyelia test. They are recommended but not essential.

A Crufts winner had Syringolmyelia when it was awarded best in show.....

Make sure you have seen the MRI reports for both dogs if going forward. Also check the COI for the breeding you are interested in.

It is not a breed I would get for the health reasons.

I'm not sure about this breed. The overly shortened face and breathing issues and snoring put me off.
Can I put a vote in for a West Highland Terrier, gorgeous and brilliant personalities.